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My First Free-Lance Job...


LifeInBinary

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Hey guys,I am taking my first free-lance job in web design. So, how much should one generally charge for this service? I have seen companies that say they make websites at a minimum of $600 - I have also seen companies say that they work for $60 dollars per hour, so is that like really hardcore productive work hours or just your average working pace which allows zoning out here and there?This is not the site I am making, but it is VERY similar. Roughly the same layout and amount of links. Text should be provided, it will require some moderate graphic design work as well.http://www.multop.comCheck that out please.So how much should I charge? Should I work per hour or one lump sum?Thanks for the help guys, this is the most helpful community I have seen on the web - no kidding.LifeInBinary.

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I don't think I'd charge more than $400 for that, especially because (I think) it doesn't look right in firefox. But then again it does have flash; since I don't know flash I'd outsource it for most likely under $50.Not to mention using tables for layout, causing each page to load at least twice as much as it should.

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I would do it in a 200USD

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dont sell yourself short. if the business that hired you are professionals they wont mind paying you. $600 should be the absolute minimum you charge i would charge a lot more.

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what you charge should be based solely on your skill. I'm not completely sure of your capabilities, but based on the questions you've posed in the forum - granted, only based on that - I think $30/hr is fair. I would caution using your first contracted client as a learning experiment. Granted, every job should push your skills to the limit and challenge you, but it should not be a completely learning experience. The ONLY exception to this would be if you have fully disclosed your skills and abilities to your client. If they are knowing supporting it, then go for it and good luck. I, for one, completely understand that you have to start somewhere - just start (and stay) honest and true to your abilities.

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I like to charge a lum sum and generally clients like that so they are not having to worry too much about how long it takes you (unless they have deadline :)).To the comment about outsourcing it for $50...when getting a project through outsourcing (getafreelancer.com etc) for $50 you'll get some guy in India (not to say that is bad necessarily) because nobody in North America (that is trying to make a living) could afford to take that job.With outsourcing you run into many obsticals like language (how good is their english), will they be honest? I see countless reviews on freelance auction sites about many buyers that got ripped off or they got a poor quality product. Those are the risks you take when hoping to get it for $50.Many businesses that hire locally don't mind paying more if they know you are professional and reliable. I generally charge (for static HTML sites) $100 for the design (they get 2 mockups and can make 2 revisions) and then I charge $25 per page to create the pages. So if that site has 15 pages (for example) I would charge $475.

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Well, I am only 15 years old...I did freelance jobs in my summer vacations so that I could buy an iPod. Plus I live in India so the exchange rate for India Rupees is ultimate...so I have not done any job of more than 100$.

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Well, I am only 15 years old...I did freelance jobs in my summer vacations so that I could buy an iPod. Plus I live in India so the exchange rate for India Rupees is ultimate...so I have not done any job of more than 100$.
:) you just illistrated my point on why outsourcing overseas is so cheap :)
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It may be cheap...but it is really cool hereEven some of my India clients pay me Rs4000 = 92$some of the good that are sold here are cheaper to you know..like a bottle of soda is only 50cent

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I like to charge a lum sum and generally clients like that so they are not having to worry too much about how long it takes you (unless they have deadline :)).
I would agree with this, especially considering that this is your first freelance project. Once you have a few projects under your belt, then clients can see that you have experience and will be more willing to be billed hourly.
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BTW - Which website are you using to get jobs...or is it directly?

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I use getacoder.comscriptlance.comgetafreelancer.comI prefer scriptlance because they have the lowest comission fees (5%) and they have a nicer dashboard.the other 2 sites take 10% and getacoder deducts and extra $5 on top of the 10%.

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what you charge should be based solely on your skill. I'm not completely sure of your capabilities, but based on the questions you've posed in the forum - granted, only based on that - I think $30/hr is fair. I would caution using your first contracted client as a learning experiment. Granted, every job should push your skills to the limit and challenge you, but it should not be a completely learning experience. The ONLY exception to this would be if you have fully disclosed your skills and abilities to your client. If they are knowing supporting it, then go for it and good luck. I, for one, completely understand that you have to start somewhere - just start (and stay) honest and true to your abilities.
Skemcin, I really appreciate your comments. That is some very helpful information. I just wanted to let you know more about how I am looking at the project. I have been dabbling with Macromedia Fireworks for about 6 months, so all of the images should be no problem. I am very confident that I will be able to do the site, most of it is pretty plain - except for the flash. I told the client that either he could get someone else to do the flash and I would put it on the site, or that he could go with a good static image. I gave a third option, which was this: I can create a very similar effect as the flash animation by using an animated gif instead, but with the software I am using I would have to edit it frame-by-frame and it would take me 2 or 3 days where someone with more appropriate software could get in done in 2 hours. I have made sure the client is very well informed, I am even telling him that I can make as many revisions as necessary to achieve the best final product. I figured that since it is my first job, and it is on the other side of the united states - that I should be as linient as possible and make a great effort to get the job done perfect and quickly, as to not get a bad reputation from the very first job. To be honest, the man I am doing the project for is fairly wealthy and very respectable - so I am thinking about just telling him to pay me what he thinks the final product is worth. He has had other similar websites made by local webdesigners, and I figure he will pay me either the ball-park range of what he paid others or maybe even more if I do it with superb quality. I thought that maybe I can take that risk to ensure a happy first client and go from there for the future? Do you think this is a bad idea? Also, I am thinking about aspnetguy's comment of "I charge $100 for the design, then $50 for the pages>" - I think that sounds great. Only I would let them have as many mock-ups and revisions as they want just because it is my first job. More input from you would be great - but anyone can feel free to give me further suggestions as well.So in short: this is not entirely a learning experience, as I have already learned most of what is required for this specific job, I am moving on in my questions on the forum to more complicated subjects than this project requires. Also, the client is well informed of my capabilities and has seen a portfolio of my personal designs and work. I told him that my rough estimate was that I could get it done in one or 2 weeks based on the information I have. I told him that the estimate was very rough and that it depended on the number of links and revisions. Is this about right? How long would most web designers alot for this job? Keep in mind I have a very busy schedule with college, a newborn, work... I told him that if he decided to let me have the job, I would put my personal matters aside and work soley on his project within reason so that it gets done as soon as possible. Time is an issue for him.He asked me what I thought about his current website and I was honest with him and told heim that "honestly, I expected to see many areas of improvement as most people don't focus as much on quality as they should - but I am very impressed with the website. Whoever you hired has done an excellent job, and I wouldn't change a thing." Then I went on to say that a few things could be aligned better, like an image in a cell needing to be moved left 3 pixels and down 2 pixels. Another thing I noticed was that they had JavaScript to prevent right-clicking - so I told him I could also prevent text selection and pointed out some other security flaws that I could improve. He was confident that his images were safe, so when I told him in an email that an image needed re-aligned I also attached both a copy of the original image and a copy of the new one I would propose. He was very impressed with my suggestions, and that is why he decided to have me make a whole new website.Again, everyone here has been more helpful than I could expect.Thanks for everything,LifeInBinary.
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what you charge should be based solely on your skill.
What Skemcin said here is spot on. i was just trying to make the point that you shouldnt undersell yourself and if the business you are dealing with are at all reputable they shouldn't mind paying you a fair wage. After all this work involves a certain level of proficiency. Try and estimate how long the job will take you and what a fair hourly wage would be for your skill level and charge that.
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Many businesses that hire locally don't mind paying more if they know you are professional and reliable. I generally charge (for static HTML sites) $100 for the design (they get 2 mockups and can make 2 revisions) and then I charge $25 per page to create the pages. So if that site has 15 pages (for example) I would charge $475.
Wow, you're a deal! The last several clients I've gotten I have quoted $800 for the site design, $100 per static page, and then a flat fee for the CMS and backend, usually to the tune of between $1200 and $3600, depending on the capabilities of the site. Total cost for the site is usually between $2000 and $5000. My hourly rate for revisions is $96. I keep raising my prices because people aren't arguing or turning me down, so a major factor in determining what to charge is the local market. If someone is willing to pay you $1000 for a site, don't charge them $500.An example of a site on the lower end of the price scale is something like this:http://www.valleywidemusic.com/
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You are very right, local market, is the determining factor. I haven't done a local site since I was just out of college so at the time I think $475 was fair considering I didn't have an "recognized" experience and there was no CMS backend. Plus where I live 90% of the businesses are exteremly cheap.

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@allTo respond to a couple points made in the replies - there is no doubt that the rate people charge is going to greatly fluctuate from one region to another - I did a 6 page website and collected over $1k (avg file size 8.5kb). Also, one must consider what is actually labeled as billable hours. For instance, one who charges $30/hour might disclose that they charge for every conversation that is longer that 15 min. I, for example, charge in the $150/hr range and only bill my clients for scheduled meetings. Obviously, I nip the calls that go in that direction - yes my clients push that threshold but that is business. So, yes, I think $25 a page is cheap, but that might only be a static HTML page and involving no server side language. I, for instance, go about things a little differently. I charge 1 hr for a static page unless a specification shows it to be more involved or a general PITA to code. But if the client wants an application - eg database driven FAQs or Event Registration - then I start with a flat $500. Then hours are added to that based on the complexity of the application. The flat fee compensates me for the effort put into the database planning and general application foundation. The additional hours take care of my coding.@Life In BinaryThanks for your reply. The additional information is a big help and indicates a lot more about your capabilities and the situation that they are being applied. I think you have taken the right approach to communicating with your client. Be honest about your availability - I've said it here before how i disclose that my discounted rate is because my time is limited due to my full time obligations. Your response to the clients question about their site is more than appropriate - especially when you disclaim the fact that ANY developer is going to find something wrong with ANY site they review. In fact, that is the opening state for every site analysis I write. But i point out how that is not bad thing - the web changes every day and so does its technology - so one can expect to find different ways of doing things. The important thing is to communicate why your approach is better - if even needed. I've gotten sites simple based on the recommendation that not much really needed to be done. In any respect, I think you are going about everything very well. I only have issue with your approach to payment. You need to establish your worth - he has his. If you had tons of money, then I can see you leaving it up to him. Establish your worth - if you think your are worth $50/hr. then charge it. If you are 100% confident about your ability to do the site, then set the worth.Anyone in the Seatle, WA area of the US might know if a small coffee shop that does charge or even set a price for coffee. You can walk in there and get a cup of self serve coffee and walk out. Its all on the honor system. I bring this up because studies have shown that people DO NOT want to set the price for something they are buying. They want be told, especially in retail, what the price is - one less decision to make. Its a nobel effort but it is not going to get you too far. Of course, this guys ambition is not to be the next Starbucks, so he seems to be content barely breaking even. But internet development is not something to let people determine the cost - especially when most clients have trouble finding the power button to their computer.Again, I think you are definitely moving in the right direction with your first job. Keep the channels open, keep him informed on progress and communicate your challenges - a compromise may be offered. But, just tell him how much it will cost - leave yourself a little room for overrun and just make sure you can sleep at night.Keep us informed on your progress. I, for one, would love to monitor your efforts.:)

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Wow, you're a deal! The last several clients I've gotten I have quoted $800 for the site design, $100 per static page, and then a flat fee for the CMS and backend, usually to the tune of between $1200 and $3600, depending on the capabilities of the site. Total cost for the site is usually between $2000 and $5000. My hourly rate for revisions is $96. I keep raising my prices because people aren't arguing or turning me down, so a major factor in determining what to charge is the local market. If someone is willing to pay you $1000 for a site, don't charge them $500.An example of a site on the lower end of the price scale is something like this:http://www.valleywidemusic.com/
Wow, that site looks like a bit less work than the site I am going to create. About how much did you charge for that?And I suppose you're right about local market - I am wondering how much web designers in the area of my client would charge for the project.Thanks for your advise,LifeInBinary.
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That site was worth somewhere between $2000 and $3000 gross. I paid some to the graphic designers, I don't do that myself. I typically pay my graphic designers around 10-20% of the total cost, depending on complexity. That's a pretty light site though, the backend only controls the text that shows up on each page and things like the performers. A site with a little more complexity, like searching through a database or something along those lines, would cost more for the backend. I just bid on a site for a restaurant that includes the entire site with layout, online ordering, online menu, photo galleries, event calendar, etc. The CMS for that I bid at about $3600, the total cost for the site I believe was $4900. They also want a web server on site, web-accessible security cameras, wireless internet access etc, and that stuff I just bid at $96/hour for setup plus hardware costs.You won't know what to charge until you start taking jobs. If you propose a certain cost and the person says "###### YEAH!", just know that next time you should ask for a little more.

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@Life In BinaryThanks for your reply. The additional information is a big help and indicates a lot more about your capabilities and the situation that they are being applied. I think you have taken the right approach to communicating with your client. Be honest about your availability - I've said it here before how i disclose that my discounted rate is because my time is limited due to my full time obligations. Your response to the clients question about their site is more than appropriate - especially when you disclaim the fact that ANY developer is going to find something wrong with ANY site they review. In fact, that is the opening state for every site analysis I write. But i point out how that is not bad thing - the web changes every day and so does its technology - so one can expect to find different ways of doing things. The important thing is to communicate why your approach is better - if even needed. I've gotten sites simple based on the recommendation that not much really needed to be done. In any respect, I think you are going about everything very well. I only have issue with your approach to payment. You need to establish your worth - he has his. If you had tons of money, then I can see you leaving it up to him. Establish your worth - if you think your are worth $50/hr. then charge it. If you are 100% confident about your ability to do the site, then set the worth.Anyone in the Seatle, WA area of the US might know if a small coffee shop that does charge or even set a price for coffee. You can walk in there and get a cup of self serve coffee and walk out. Its all on the honor system. I bring this up because studies have shown that people DO NOT want to set the price for something they are buying. They want be told, especially in retail, what the price is - one less decision to make. Its a nobel effort but it is not going to get you too far. Of course, this guys ambition is not to be the next Starbucks, so he seems to be content barely breaking even. But internet development is not something to let people determine the cost - especially when most clients have trouble finding the power button to their computer.Again, I think you are definitely moving in the right direction with your first job. Keep the channels open, keep him informed on progress and communicate your challenges - a compromise may be offered. But, just tell him how much it will cost - leave yourself a little room for overrun and just make sure you can sleep at night.Keep us informed on your progress. I, for one, would love to monitor your efforts.:)
Thank you so much, Skemcin, for the advice. I would like to keep you informed and possibly get some input along the way - should I just continue to use this topic for that purpose? Also, I kinda agreed to get started without setting payment before I checked the latest replies... He simply said, "you will be paid suffienciently. Don't worry about it right now, we need this quick." - which leads me to believe that he is reputable enough to pay me decently for my first job. Another thing that I should mention is that he knows this is my first job - so I don't want to push things too much. When he said that to me I just thought, "well, I better get on it, I'm sure he'll pay me well". He is getting back to me with some specifics of the layout and planning, so should I pipe in at some point and mention that I charge a $200 flat fee for the design, then $50 dollars per static page? I was thinking about mentioning that if I need to get somebody else to do the flash, that I will tell him up front what they will charge, then add that to the total price of my service. So if it had 6 static pages, and I had to get somebody to do the flash for me for $100 - I would charge $600 - does this sound good for my first job? I figure I might charge that way in the future, but since I already agreed to do it just accepting that he will pay me 'sufficiently' - should I just let this first job go and take what he gives me, that way I don't look like I don't know what I'm doing - or should I tell him that I've thought about payment, and propose my figures?I am also thinking about charging $25 to $100 (based on complexity) per graphic image that I design for clients in the future, is this a good idea?Please get back to me about the payment questions. Thanks for all your help.Just asking, if I were to have a small easily fixable problem with tables or something, would you care to help me? Unfortunately I could not afford to pay you for anything, as I am pretty broke myself and trying to make ends meet for my wife and son (I'm only 20) - but you seem to be very informed on this matter, and I would love to have your assistance if needed. Feel free to say no to that by the way.Thanks again Skemcin,LifeInBinary.
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I just thought that maybe it would be helpful if I included the original email I sent to my client about the job.I guess I'll try putting it in a code box so I don't take up too much room...Nevermind the code box - it looked weird, I'll just make it blue...John,Sorry it has taken this long to get back to you - as I said, I have been very busy with some classes - but I finally decided earlier today that I should go ahead and look at what you are wanting in your website, so that I can be up front with you as to whether or not I can get it done in a timely fashion. I thought that if it was going to be complicated and take a while with my schedule, that I should go ahead and let you know so that I don't waste your time and you could get someone else to do it - and that if it looks like I can do it, then I would just go ahead and make time for you and get it out of the way. Well, I looked over the brochure, as well as http://www.multop.com, and it looks like I will be able to do it for you fairly quickly if you are still interested. I know time is a very important factor for you and the company, but I want to make it very clear to you that if you decide to let me do the job for you, I will put all personal objectives aside and get your website done as promptly as possible. It would be very helpful if I could get a hold of the original images that the brochure included, but if not I can also make it work. I would also need the "MyriadPro - Semibold" font that was used in the brochure - unless it will be okay to go with something very similar. I would like to discuss some specifics such as the exact (or approximate if you wish me to use my own judgment on the first draft) layout of the home page, and what range of pay you are thinking of. Everything is completely at your discretion concerning all aspects of the website and reasonable workflow, however I would like to propose that - since we are doing this long-distance - you tell me your basic needs for the home page, I make a complete home page and host it privately, give you a link, then you can tell me if anything needs to change or if we're good to go. Then we would work on each of the links in a similar way. I am estimating the project take between one or two weeks, depending on how many links are involved and how many changes need to be made - keep in mind that this is a very rough estimate given the information that I currently have. Also of note, I am not currently able to create Flash documents such as the animated image at the top of the http://www.multop.com website. I can get the same effect, but I have to edit it frame-by-frame with the software I am using - so I would recommend either having someone else do the actual Flash animation, then getting it to me so that I can put it on the website, or just going with a good static image that does not move - which I can even design for you if required. I can create the same effect as their .swf image by using an animated .gif image - but it would take me two or three days to do it that way - whereas someone with more appropriate software could do it in two hours.Sorry to write so much John, I understand that you may have even already decided to have someone else work on this for you - but I wanted to let you know exactly where I stand and what is involved in the case that you are still interested, so that we can get the ball rolling.Bottom line is this: I can do the project with great quality, and I can complete it as quickly - if not quicker - as anyone else is likely to. I would love to get started on it, I have already been brainstorming on a few areas of the layout to run by you - so if you want to give it a go, just send me an email and I'll get started immediately!Thanks for your time,Jay Williams.That's just for future reference I suppose.Thanks again guys,LifeInBinary.

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:) you just illistrated my point on why outsourcing overseas is so cheap :)
No offense aspnetguy, but in prateek's defense - they make a lot less money over there than we do in the US. I just wanted to interject and say that you can't determine somebody's talent by their location in the world. You are right, outsourcing is generally a bad idea - but that's because most foreign workers don't perform the same caliber work as a country's domestic workers - not that it can't be done. I guess I'm saying I understand where you are comming from, but at the same time - prateek is only 15 and working in the sumer on websites. He is being very entreprenueristic, and making money that he wouldn't normally be getting otherwise. I say good for him, he is probably making a little bit more money than some of the kids in his neighborhood - and prateek, I am only 20 :) Hope it doesn't sound like I'm downing you either prateek - things get kinda weird when money exchanges at different rates around the world.Don't mean to cause any ripples with that, just wanted to put things in perspective a bit more for everybody.Sorry about that,LifeInBinary.
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