OT: Humans

[Caligo]

I must say, this entire discussion has made me think quite a bit. Due to the lack of time I shall, for now, only briefly speak.One question I have is how do you know that the equipment used to measure the age of bones etc. are really accurate? Yeah sure accurate up to what, about hundred years, and thats only because someone is alive to say, "Yeah, that's X amount of years old" and they had personally seen it that many years ago.It's kind of like what was said about the thing with the laws of physics.

The laws of physics (i.e. gravity, inertia, conservation of energy), for example, are theories that we've tested and verified over and over and over, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the next time we test them they will behave as expected. Since we can't know for sure if the laws hold up in all situations, we have to have faith that they will. They are, after all, simply models of what we have experienced. We have to have faith that the models apply in all situations.

Considering the quoted, how, then, can one be sure, things are from millions of years or however long ago?This may not make as much sense as I'm trying to convey but I have not the time to get into this right now. I will be back for further discussion, as I thoroughly enjoy such conversations.

[jesh]

One question I have is how do you know that the equipment used to measure the age of bones etc. are really accurate? Yeah sure accurate up to what, about hundred years, and thats only because someone is alive to say, "Yeah, that's X amount of years old" and they had personally seen it that many years ago.

Two methods of calculating the passage of time to determine how old something is are dendrochronology, which measures the passage of time by counting tree rings, and Radio Carbon Dating, which counts the number atoms of a certain carbon isotope that exists in organic objects (like charcoal from a fire or bones from a dinosaur). Both methods hold up scientifically - meaning that after conducting countless experiments with known time frames, both methods have been shown to accurately measure time. If the reliability of the methods comes into doubt, science itself, therefore, must be doubted. At that point, you're back to talking about faith.

[Caligo]

If the reliability of the methods comes into doubt, science itself, therefore, must be doubted. At that point, you're back to talking about faith.

That was quite my point.

[justsomeguy]

Radiocarbon dating is based off observation and math. We have observed that the isotope carbon-14 is present in all living things, and that when the thing dies, it stops taking in carbon-14. We also observed that the rate at which carbon-14 decays is constant. So, by measuring the amount of carbon-14 which is present now, we can determine how much time has passed since the carbon-14 was at a "normal" level. Since carbon-14 is only relevant for living things, similar methods using different elements are involved for dating rocks, like this:http://www2.nature.nps.gov/geology/usgsnps/gtime/radiom.htmlAlso, if you find a layer of rock, and there are plant samples and you can say that the plant samples are 50,000 years old, then it stands to reason that the layer of rock under those plants is older then 50,000 years. It's an obvious concept, but it's a pretty key part of dating, especially for things like the moon. If there are two craters nearby on the moon, and ejecta from one crater is covering the other one, then obviously the crater with dirt on it is older then the other crater. And if we have one rock layer that we know is at least 50 million years old, and under that layer we find another layer with bones in it, then clearly those bones are older then 50 million years old.

[jesh]

[H]ow ... can one be sure, things are from millions of years or however long ago?

That was quite my point.

Basically, you can't be completely sure. However, you can, using science, be reasonably sure. Maybe 99% sure. But there does exist that 1% possiblity that millions of scientists are wrong.

Radiocarbon dating is ....

Excellent description!

[aspnetguy]

And indeed, it seems weird that God would mess with our heads. Would God (if he exists) deceive us like that?

No He wouldn't. It is stupid for anyone to say that God put fossils here to mess with our heads.Dinosaurs existed...we have proof. As for the age of them and how old the earht really is is something nobody can know for 100% sure...personally I don't spend to much time thinking about it.

[Jonas]

I don't spend much time thinking about (precisely) how old the earth is either, but I take it for granted that it is at least 500 million years like they say here, and not 6 or 12,000 years. That's really the discussion I believe. This has really evolved into a religious debate, whether you believe this or that.

[reportingsjr]

I say its at least 4.99999999999999999999999 billion years old. At least thats just what I think.

[Caligo]

This has really evolved into a religious debate, whether you believe this or that.

Not being rude or anything, but is that a problem or were you just pointing that out?

[Jonas]

Not being rude or anything, but is that a problem or were you just pointing that out?

It was really uttered as a remark, although I was expecting that it was against the rules, but I realize that was in an older version. I still think it's a bad idea to discuss things like politics and religion and stuff unless we have an off-topic forum where people can knowingly engage in such debates, because discussions/debates on politics and religion often develop into arguments. But never mind.

[Caligo]

couldn't you start a new forum for such things?

[Jonas]

Now you're moving onto this discussion:http://w3schools.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=5790

[aspnetguy]

That has been brought up and discussed in the past and the site admind decided not to have an off topic area and wanted to stay more focused on web languages.This topic has illistrated Jonas' comments on it not being a good idea to discuss politics or religion here. People get worked up, defensive, aggressive, toward topics like this which can lead to resentment.I also feel it should be controlled (especially since I am guilty of "fueling the fire" on this) when topics like this oopen or get off track.

[Akula_dude]

idea: how about we set up another forum somewhere and just link to it from these forums? so w3schools company doesnt pay for the bandwidth, but we still get O-T forums

[Caligo]

I understand why the admins wouldn't want an ot area. too bad though, i like having discussions as this past one

[aspnetguy]

I had a seperate forum but the was not much activity after the first couple days.Perhaps if someone wants to set one up (or if there is enough interest I will setup one up again) and we can make it a sticky redirect topic.

[ible-white]

i'm back after some days. busy. busy. busy.well, my response has nothing to do with the last few comments about not discussing politics and religion and so on.anyway- i dont have much to say- i see most people are stuck in what they believe without fairly giving much thought to another's beliefs. and i see that i am the only one here fully backing up the Bible- everyone else seems to believe in evolution in one way or the other. so- whatever i say will just go in the right ear and come through the left. lol. so- i respect what u guys believe. thanks for sharing. but i'll definitely stick to the Bible alllll the way! after all, i didn't just appear from no where- i was wonderfully created thanks to God.well, i wouldn't wanna break the rules in anyway. so- we'll bounce upon similar discussions again once there is an O.T. forum/ or once topics of this nature is fully permitted.and yeah- sometimes one needs a break from all the coding... "xdf'th#ul[mq*aw..., having an off-topic thingy will be cool. sometmes i code so much that i see it all when i am sleeping.

[justsomeguy]

i see most people are stuck in what they believe without fairly giving much thought to another's beliefs.

That statement reminded me of this:

we have NEVER been a part of evolution my dear. we were CREATED by God our Creator- we did not just evolved from nowhere!...pardon me, but this world is only 6,000 years old. from creation to the flood is 2,000 yrs, from the flood to the cross is 2,000 yrs and from the cross to now is 2,000 yrs= add it up u get 6,000.

Believe me, I've given your beliefs a lot of thought throughout my life, from church at an early age through a religious high school. There are too many unanswered questions for me to take it all seriously. But, nevertheless, I do enjoy having an intelligent discussion about it. I've been able to have a discussion with Arabs debating the Israel/Palestine conflict without tempers getting turned up, as long as people keep things civil there is a lot to talk about.

[Jonas]

so- whatever i say will just go in the right ear and come through the left.

Actually, for me things tend to go in the left ear and out the right. Yeah.

[aspnetguy]

i'm back after some days. busy. busy. busy.well, my response has nothing to do with the last few comments about not discussing politics and religion and so on.anyway- i dont have much to say- i see most people are stuck in what they believe without fairly giving much thought to another's beliefs. and i see that i am the only one here fully backing up the Bible- everyone else seems to believe in evolution in one way or the other. so- whatever i say will just go in the right ear and come through the left. lol. so- i respect what u guys believe. thanks for sharing. but i'll definitely stick to the Bible alllll the way! after all, i didn't just appear from no where- i was wonderfully created thanks to God.well, i wouldn't wanna break the rules in anyway. so- we'll bounce upon similar discussions again once there is an O.T. forum/ or once topics of this nature is fully permitted.and yeah- sometimes one needs a break from all the coding... "xdf'th#ul[mq*aw..., having an off-topic thingy will be cool. sometmes i code so much that i see it all when i am sleeping.

Not true. I do not believe in evolution at all. I believe in the Bible 100%. I am just not prepared to say the earth is only 6000 years old. Yes I believe human history began 6000 years ago but to say creation did...I don't know. If you would like to discuss this further with me you can do so through PM.

[Jonas]

Not true. I do not believe in evolution at all. I believe in the Bible 100%.

Well, I'm a bit surprised at that. Not that you believe in the Bible 100%, but that you don't believe in evolution at all. I think even if I believed, I'd still be open to for example species having changed and adapted to their respective enviroments since the Creation.

[aspnetguy]

Well, I'm a bit surprised at that. Not that you believe in the Bible 100%, but that you don't believe in evolution at all. I think even if I believed, I'd still be open to for example species having changed and adapted to their respective enviroments since the Creation.

Of course species have changed and adapted...there just haven't been any fish with legs walking around breathing air.If evolution were true wouldn't we find fossils of the "in-between" stages of species evolving? fish with legs?

[jesh]

If evolution were true wouldn't we find fossils of the "in-between" stages of species evolving? fish with legs?

I think this is one of the major criticisms with evolution. My response would be: Just because scientists haven't found the fossils yet, doesn't mean they won't be found. New species are discovered all the time through the uncovering of fossils.

[reportingsjr]

there just haven't been any fish with legs walking around breathing air.If evolution were true wouldn't we find fossils of the "in-between" stages of species evolving? fish with legs?

O rly? I have to disagree, there are actually 3 or 4 fish that can breathe on land and walk around. There are some fish that were imported to America fro China and they can walk around in bad conditions for quite a few hours, in good conditions they can live and walk around on dry land for up to 2 weeks at a time, no water at all. What might you call fins? They are pretty much like legs, except the are wider and allow fish to move around through water. The fish I was talking about above uses it fins to "walk", it drags its body around with them.Monkeys have only a few chromosomes different than us, I think its only one or two out of 46. Many of them look like small hairy humans and they eat the same stuff. (Some people eat bugs..) The closest looking monkey has no hair on its face... like us (except beard) and a very small stubby tail, only like 3-6 inches long.What might you have to say to that? And if humans are only 6k years old how come they have found skeletons of humans in the range of 90-100k years old?

[justsomeguy]

Of course species have changed and adapted...there just haven't been any fish with legs walking around breathing air.If evolution were true wouldn't we find fossils of the "in-between" stages of species evolving? fish with legs?

*cough*lungfish*cough*Excuse me.Muddy Mudskipper says hello.