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My First Free-Lance Job...


LifeInBinary

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I never said that at all. There are many talented people in India. In fact there was a 12 year girl how passed the Microsoft Networking Certifiaction exams and I think she was form India.$1 USD is around 44 rupees I think. I don't know how much that will buy but it must be a decent exchange since many people from India bid very low on freelance sites. that is what I said. Yes there happens to be many programmers with really bad reviews that come from India but I didn't say everyone in India didn't have talent or that everyone was dishonest.

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Just to lay down some background, my client is my aunt's boss who owns the company she is working for. So I can be casual when I speak to her, but formal when speaking to John - the actual client.This is an email I just sent to my aunt. It mentions how I plan to squirm out of my previous payment suggestion. Does it sound good?Thanks, no problem. I sent the email to John. I understand you need it quick, and I'll do it as quickly as I can. I know we should talk about price later, but I figure since I'm waiting for John to get back with me on some details, I can mention this while I'm waiting. I have talked to about 10 different web designers over the past couple of days, and I have gotten a very good idea of what I should be charging to start off. I was wondering if I should go ahead and mention my thoughts on specific figures or just wait until it's done? I'm sorry to be so unprofessional about this whole thing, but it's my first job - and a lot of people are giving me advice on a forum about how they handle their business. Now I know how it should be done in the future, it just caught me off guard for the first job - I wasn't really expecting it. Anyway, let me know what you think. Should I throw out some specific figures and kind of negotiate with John (while I'm working on the site of course) or just sit back until it gets done? Again, sorry to sound like a nag. Love,Jay.Again, thanks for the loads of valuable help and advice,LifeInBinary.

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I'm happy to share my perspective, especially if it's useful. You can use your judgment on how to update me/the community. If you have something general to report, i'd probably just tack it on here. If you have something you feel you'd prefer my direct and discrete feedback on, then feel free to send an email or private message - whatever makes you most comfortable.My feedback on your payment approach is really more of a perfect world scenario. That's why I mentioned that you gotta do what you gotta do to break that chastity belt. So, if its compromising pay or risking it all together, there is always the satisfaction in learning a lesson early on. Again, not that anything at all is wrong with your approach - each angle has a risk. My first commercial job was a trade - I bartered a couple web pages for a Rossignol snowboard and Trek Mountain Bike. I latter earned a complete paid redesign, so everything is subjective. I'm not sure you should feel to obligated to put a price out there with the feedback he is giving you. But, that shouldn;t stop you from keeping track of ALL your hours. Divide them up in consulting, design, and coding. That way you can always produce a bill for him even if he could care less. In fact, if you come in above what he pays you, he's gonna write that off of that business' taxes - so I'd be surprised if he doesn't ask you for something eventually. so, keep a record - not so much for him, but for you - you will need to reference this information to better estimate future jobs. Just wait until its all said and done - then you can present the hours and negotiate final payment.As for rates, I feel the more generic you label your rates, the more room you have to work with your client. If you say $xxx per graphic, then your client will begin to think on a micro level. You want the client to think big. Its your job to take the big picture and fit it into the little box they are willing to pay for. So don't limit your clients perspective by giving them restricting parameters to think within. (my opinion anyway)I'm sure I can find some time to help with your coding issue. Is this the one you have posted on the board already? I've not read through it, but it seems there are some replies - are there no solutions? Are you open to a different approach if I review the method/approach you are taking. Naturally, I'll try to make your approach work first and foremost.The flash animation in the top of the site is pretty basic and its something I could recreate for you within a couple hours. So, you could always say that you have contacts that could get the flash job done. Whatever the case may be, work on a storyboard for the flash movie and get him to sign off on it. Send it along and I can give you an estimate (probably just a couple hundred). I can wait until after you are paid, or you could put a still image up until you can pay me - whatever you like.Anyway, keep in touch in whatever way you like - PM is fine for specific things.

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I never said that at all. There are many talented people in India. In fact there was a 12 year girl how passed the Microsoft Networking Certifiaction exams and I think she was form India.$1 USD is around 44 rupees I think. I don't know how much that will buy but it must be a decent exchange since many people from India bid very low on freelance sites. that is what I said. Yes there happens to be many programmers with really bad reviews that come from India but I didn't say everyone in India didn't have talent or that everyone was dishonest.
okay, like I said - I'm really sorry about mentioning anything at all, I just know how easy it is for people to take offense to things online - especially when they are from different countries.Just looking out for pateek, sorry aspnetguy.By the way, that Microsoft Networking Certification is CRAZY! My programming teacher told me about it, and if a 12 year old from anywhere passed that exam - kudos to her!Thanks for clearing that up, and I do apologize,LifeInBinary.
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okay, like I said - I'm really sorry about mentioning anything at all, I just know how easy it is for people to take offense to things online - especially when they are from different countries.Just looking out for pateek, sorry aspnetguy.By the way, that Microsoft Networking Certification is CRAZY! My programming teacher told me about it, and if a 12 year old from anywhere passed that exam - kudos to her!Thanks for clearing that up, and I do apologize,LifeInBinary.
Hey it is no problem I just don't want to be misunderstood and have people thinking that :)
Its a really good convertion rate, believe me.... I from India studied ther, did my undergrad there, did Masters in US and working here.. its a lot of money.. :)
that is what I thought, how else could they afford to do the work for so cheap. That is how dollar stores sell so much stuff, it is from China and $1 goes a long way. Some items I've seen in dollar stores for $1 would easily cost more than $5 if made in North America.
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Its a really good convertion rate, believe me.... I from India studied ther, did my undergrad there, did Masters in US and working here.. its a lot of money.. :)
Nice input pulpfiction.Thanks,LifeInBinary.
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I'm happy to share my perspective, especially if it's useful.
Thanks Skemcin, you have been more than helpful :)I might take you up on that flash offer as well.By the way, I also Ski and Mtn. Bike - awesome stuff.I'll keep you posted,LifeInBinary.
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I have Macromedia Fireworks (which is awesome for static graphics) and Macromedia Flash. I have Dreamweaver too. I am good with Fireworks, but I don't know how to use Flash - I can't seem to figure it out. Does anyone know of some really good tutorials anywhere? Also, I have PowerPoint - is there a way to make a slideshow, import it to a Macromedia program, and convert it to .swf? Any help on this would be great. I am also trying to learn how to use Dreamweaver, looking for tutorials on that too. It would be nice to be able to take sliced interfaces directly from Fireworks and have Dreamweaver take care of positioning and swaps.Thanks as always guys,LifeInBinary.

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I'm sure I can find some time to help with your coding issue. Is this the one you have posted on the board already? I've not read through it, but it seems there are some replies - are there no solutions? Are you open to a different approach if I review the method/approach you are taking. Naturally, I'll try to make your approach work first and foremost.
That's not related to this project. Thanks though, I might ask you about a thing or two if needed. I am making a personal website with a portfolio and stuff - that's where the problem is - so it's kind of getting pushed to the back burner for now. I really could use some help, but I think justsomeguy told me what I needed to know. If it doesn't work, I'll PM you about it I guess.Thanks again,LifeInBinary.
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As far as learning Flash goes, the best tutorials I've found are inside the program itself. You can go to the Help menu, select Flash Help, and you will see a tutorials category with a ton of tutorials in it. Flash is a pretty big and complex application, and the tutorials go through basic things like drawing, making shapes move, the concept of working with movie clips, Actionscript programming, etc. If you have any questions about programming in Flash you can ask here, the syntax for Actionscript is very similar to Javascript.

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As far as learning Flash goes, the best tutorials I've found are inside the program itself. You can go to the Help menu, select Flash Help, and you will see a tutorials category with a ton of tutorials in it. Flash is a pretty big and complex application, and the tutorials go through basic things like drawing, making shapes move, the concept of working with movie clips, Actionscript programming, etc. If you have any questions about programming in Flash you can ask here, the syntax for Actionscript is very similar to Javascript.
Thanks, I'll check this out.LifeInBinary.
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Just to let everyone know - I just officially got the job! :)The client sent me an email saying "you're hired." and told me he wants to schedule a conference call.There's the first billable hours :)Thanks guys,LifeInBinary.

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nice - CONGRATULATIONS.smile_party.gifPlanning is key, so try to get some sort of agenda together for that call. If you've not had any other conversations about the site that what you've shared, then you'll need to establish the site design (not graphical, but the layout). Then, you fit the content in by deciding what content will stay and what content will go. Once your content is conceptualized in your new layout, then you start on your graphic user interface. If you are strictly doing a redesign, then most of that is a walk in the park and you can get right to the nit and gritty.

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Thanks guys - I'll keep you posted.By the way, I think I decided to go ahead and just let this first client pay whatever he wants. He is very honest (I do already informally know him) and fairly well off. Just because I already made the mistake of leaving it up to him - I don't wan't to sound like I'm taking anything back. At least now I know in the future some better ideas for pricing. I'll let you know what I make, and post a link to the final site when it's done.Again, thanks a lot guys,LifeInBinary - Off to work :)

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I kinda did the same mistake in a job interview..... when interviewer asked me about the pay range im expecting.... i said " i dont have any number in mind" he offered the job for $3000 PA lesser compared to what he offered to my friend for the same job.. that sucked... then realised we need to do some homework abt such thing too.....

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I say $300 start off and $50 per page...that's real fair...if they go to a real web design company they are going to pay A LOT A LOT MORE!...even if a company is really bad (and they don't knwo what they are doing)...A LOT, just because they can.Don't sell yourself short...businesses have money and they take a website as advertising and 300-800 is not much money (even for a small business)Also, I would not copy anything from that site.THAT SITE IS HIDEOUS! Not a good template to base anything off of.Good design = more $

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I've never had an actual job with programming. Hopefully I will get one soon! I am going to start using Fireworks to (its awesome!). By the way, congrats on it :).yippee.gifa084.gifbanana.gifSorry... Just got a firefox extension that give me more smileys :).

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Hey guys, just wanted to let you know how the job was going.The conference call went well. We agreed that they would have their first mock-up within a week or so from the call. I made the mock-up two hours after the call, but I am making sure that I am actually capable of putting the Fireworks .png graphics into the HTML file using tables - that way I don't agree to do something I can't. I'm not too familiar with div classes, and I don't really know what they are capable of. I am okay with tables, but I have only done one other website with tables and it was less complicated than this one. So I figure I will use the rest of the week to slice my image and put it into tables. I've got a good start, but I have text that I would like to be selectable - and I don't know how to get it into the tables. I know I would delete the text from the actual image, then use the image without the text as the background image for the cell, then align my text how I want it and put it in the code. Here is the problem: The areas for text are chopped up in different cells, and I'm not shure how to do the spanning. Would anybody be willing to help me out with this?I have thought about just doing the whole site in images without text - just because it's my first job. When I get paid, I plan on taking the Macromedia certification course for Dreamweaver - that way I can import graphics directly from Fireworks and know how to use Dreamweaver to easily insert the code into the perfect tables that Fireworks uses by default without manual slicing. The client has mentioned to me that he wants me to be the one for revisions and stuff down the road, so I guess I could do this however I want to if I'm the only one looking at the source files. My first thought was, "I can't do this with all images - that's cheating. If someone else goes to make an edit down the road, they will be pissed. They will probably tell him that they can't make the edit and I have to do it. That's job security, but it's not very reputable. I want my work to scream perfection." - then I thought, "Well, I guess it doesn't matter. The client wants me to continue with this project months down the road. I could do it with images for now, then when I get paid and learn more I can always go back and do it right. All the client wants is a functional, aesthetically pleasing website - he didn't tell me what exact means to use..." So what should I do guys?If anyone wants to see the work so far, I'll upload it to geocities and post a link. Or I can post the source code.Thanks for all the help guys,LifeInBinary.

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By the way, I think I decided to go ahead and just let this first client pay whatever he wants.
no offense but to me that is absolute madness you should have decieded a fair price and asked for it. if you are unwilling to put a value on your work then people will assume you are not worth much. please trust me on that if you had of asked for a fair price the guy would have probably paid it. if not he would tell you that is too much and you could perhaps renegotiate. if he was unwilling to pay you a satisfactory amount then you dont do the job. anyway that said, this is your first job and you have already gone another route so i wish you the very best of luck with it.
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no offense but to me that is absolute madness
Yeah, I agree with you ste. Like you said, it is my first job. I realize I made a HUGE mistake, but when I came into this I had no idea how much to charge. Since I have spoken with everyone here about it, I have a VERY good idea of what I should be charging - and what I will charge for the next client. This was a learning experience in terms of pay. I suppose I am obligated to finish this project and hope for the best. I'll let you guys know what I make so that we can all gossip about it :) lol. Anyway, since I told him I would do it, I don't want to be like, "Hey, wait a minute. Actually I won't do this unless you pay me $xxx." I don't want to sound like my word is worthless. So now I know how 'not' to do business. Thanks for the comments though ste.Thanks,LifeInBinaryBy the way, always open for constructive criticism :)
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