Online Business

[vchris]

Ok, I wanna make money online and I wanna start an online business such as sell fonts, web templates, car postings, job postings...I was just wondering which would be the best online business to start and that has a lot of demand for?

[pulpfiction]

My opinion on your list,Job Posting or a Web Template is a good idea...You can try things like friendfinder. more like hi5, facebook.. you can find a lot of ppl looking for "friends"

[aspnetguy]

I am not sure which would be the highest demand but whatever you decide to sell you should look around the web for similar websites.Ask these questions.1. How much do they charge or are they free2. Why would someone want to come to my website instead of another one, basically what do you have to offer that makes your site better.3. Is this market worth the effort? Is it already full of lots of similar services.These are important things to consider. You want to be in a fairly strong market with fewer competition.

[justsomeguy]

Or better yet, start your own market. Figure out something that is missing that people would find fun or useful and go from there. But people do need to find it fun or useful, you can't expect to just make something that you think is cool and expect other people to flock to it.

[vchris]

I think car postings or job postings would be great. I have a friend that has a job posting board and it's 45$ Canadian for each posting. So imagine if you have lots of posts!!!Same for car postings but I think the cost would be lower. When I design a site I always make sure to make it easy to navigate. If you ask me it's one of the most important things.I just need to figure out how to charge people for postings. I'm probably going to let a company like paypal take care of it. Do I need to create a company in order to charge people?

[Skemcin]

Sorry, but I heard this a thousand times from 5 different people. I can assure you, that you have already failed. Anyone who knows me by now will understand how out of character that comment is - and I really do apologize - but I HAVE to keep it real.You're approach just screams out to me - "How do I make a quick buck using the internet". By saying you want to start and online business but yet having no idea which one you want to start and then asking which type is most profitable or worth it . . . you only show ME (for one) that all you care about is money.So, my suggestion, get into porn and never come back here.However, if I am totally off base here and have not come close to reading your post correctly, then, by all means, please enlighten me how whatever you intend to do online is not going to manipulate someone in some borderline unethical way.If you really want to start an online business and if you really have the intent to do so, then you will need to put MUCH more thought into it than that. You will also find that in order to be successful you will need to do something a little different, like its already been mentioned, otherwise you would not have to ask the question. How will you market yourself and make it worth people to try something new if you are no different than something already established, etc.If being successful online was as easy as asking what market to get into - the I dare say noone that frequents this forum would bother coming here.I do sincerely and respectfully apologize for anyone who might take offense to my post, especially regarding my remarks on failure, but I have seen and dealt with my share of get rich quick clients, and NONE of then has ever been able to bring me a solid business plan that would come close to making money in less than 5 years.If you wanna make money online, use ebay.P.S. I'm not in a pissy mood today either. This, to me, is trolling.

[vchris]

Well at the end that's what it's all about... money. I'm not saying I wanna take advantage of clients. What I wanna do is offer them a service (car selling board) which would be better in some ways than others. I know it takes time to get known online so 5+ years is expected.

[Skemcin]

Well at the end that's what it's all about... money. I'm not saying I wanna take advantage of clients. What I wanna do is offer them a service (car selling board) which would be better in some ways than others. I know it takes time to get known online so 5+ years is expected.

I hope I do have it wrong in my post. I just have to say I seen this way to many times. And no, its not about making money - financial rewards should be second to your clients rewards. You should have said, its all about the client. its the client that pays your bills, its not the money that gets you the client. And what do you expect to happen in the first five years - do you have enough money to take on losses for that period of time? Will you be able to keep a full time job AND have enough time to make the site profitable. I mean profitable in not just it breaking even with direct costs, I mean indirect costs as well.I'm not at all a pessimist, you just have a heck of alot of work to do given the place you are starting from.Good Luck.

[vchris]

What kind of costs are we talking about here? I know the servers will cost but how much? I should be able at the beginning anyway to get a normal plan from any hoster.Let me worry about the clients ok.

[justsomeguy]

I think car postings or job postings would be great. I have a friend that has a job posting board and it's 45$ Canadian for each posting. So imagine if you have lots of posts!!!

It doesn't matter what you charge if no one knows about it. People won't buy ads on a site that no one knows about, they go to craigslist instead. And there's no point in making another craigslist, because, well, there already is one.If you want to use your internet skills to make money, set up a company, register a name and become legit, and make websites for other people. If you are good, you will be able to charge $75-$125 per hour or more for good PHP programming. And you can even work for anyone in world, like, for example, someone in Spain.

[aspnetguy]

Unless you have lots of money to advertise your site/service and can afford to provide it free for at least a year then you are probably not going to make a go of it.Another thought is...free sites make money too. If you can provide a service everyone wants and its free (and there aren't a million of them already) then there is a good chance you will be able to build decent traffic in the first couple of years.At that point you may be able to sell ad space or at least sign up for Google AdSense.

[vchris]

It doesn't matter what you charge if no one knows about it.  People won't buy ads on a site that no one knows about, they go to craigslist instead.  And there's no point in making another craigslist, because, well, there already is one.If you want to use your internet skills to make money, set up a company, register a name and become legit, and make websites for other people.  If you are good, you will be able to charge $75-$125 per hour or more for good PHP programming.  And you can even work for anyone in world, like, for example, someone in Spain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is also in my plans! It'll take a while to be able to live off it... I guess you start part time and try to get known.

Unless you have lots of money to advertise your site/service and can afford to provide it free for at least a year then you are probably not going to make a go of it.Another thought is...free sites make money too. If you can provide a service everyone wants and its free (and there aren't a million of them already) then there is a good chance you will be able to build decent traffic in the first couple of years.At that point you may be able to sell ad space or at least sign up for Google AdSense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is also a great idea! But what kind of costs would it be for a car posting site? any idea?delete the double post please (deleted) Edited June 8, 2006 by Skemcin

[Skemcin]

What kind of costs are we talking about here? I know the servers will cost but how much? I should be able at the beginning anyway to get a normal plan from any hoster.Let me worry about the clients ok.

I know I provoked the defensive tone you take in your last statement which is why I am fine with seeing it. Please, just understand that I am only challenging you to think about the much larger picture your goal encompasses.Let me answer your question by letting you know from my experience something I realized. The more your business begins to take the very shape you dreamed of, the less you end up doing the things you love to do. Whether you enjoy coding the site or managing the clients, eventually will you be doing neither one. That is fine only when you are comfortable seeing the code you worked so hard to write a particular way go down the drain and you're okay with the relationships you worked hard to build your company off of become less personal, less intimate, and more removed. Also, understand, that you may admit that is something you can handle, and it maybe, but whatever you think it will be like is only one tenth of the reality it becomes as it becomes the reason you business will plateau at a certain point. Again, if that happens to be at an acceptable level - then more power to you. But even in that case, it will be easy to become frustrated with seeing what is just beyond your reach.Having said that, I will leave the client to you, thats "ok" with me. As for costs, to many starts ups don't consider two major indirect costs, their time and their time. that would be their time to manage the client and their time to manage the project. Many mask reality by writing that off as sweat equity. Well, its not sweat equity, its sweat losses. If you do not plan for and charge for every minute you speak to a client or the time you spent figuring out what you are going to do, then you are only adding to your losses. I'm not saying that you can't offer an initial free consultation, but you will have to figure out how to make subsequent visits billable. Your clients will need to feel that its worth what ever that is or they will find someone cheaper - and even though they might not be as good, it won't matter to your client. For them, it is all about money, unless you can persuade them otherwise - which is possible (I've had great success with selling my trust before I sell my skills and services). Just make sure you include your wages in your costs - even if you don't want to pay yourself (another bad idea).Hope that helps.

[justsomeguy]

If you do not plan for and charge for every minute you speak to a client or the time you spent figuring out what you are going to do, then you are only adding to your losses.  I'm not saying that you can't offer an initial free consultation, but you will have to figure out how to make subsequent visits billable.

That's a good point, but it's double-edged. You can bill for all of your time and never lose money, but you will probably end up losing clients who don't want to get an invoice in the mail for a phone call or a meeting. I never bill for consultations, I expect that I will impress the client enough that they will want to go with me, and I make my time spent during consultation back in the prices that I charge to do the project. Obviously not every client goes through with the project (the majority of them do not). I can have 5 or 6 consultations that never come to fruition, but then when I land a $30,000 project it balances things out.The single hardest thing about the process is gaining the client's trust without breaking your bank. You can do things for free to try to get the job, but you still might not even get it and then you're out of pocket. So you have to gain their trust with the minimum time spent possible. One thing that really helps here is to have experience doing what they want and the references to back it up. But that also takes time, your first year or two you won't have references. The thing that has hurt me the most in gaining trust is the legion of terrible web developers out there. No offense to anyone here, but it seems like every 14 year old kid who teaches himself HTML is trying to sell someone a web page, and those customers end up very distrustful about web developers because the kid didn't know what he was doing in the first place, even though he told them (and he thought) that he did, and he ends up screwing everything up and the client gets ripped off. So then when I come around and I say I'm charging $125/hour but you will get what you pay for, I can almost hear their thought process about the last experience they had. Their eyes say it all, they got burned in the past by someone who didn't know what they were doing and now they don't trust me because of that. But granted, when you make a customer like that happy, they tell everyone about you.

[Skemcin]

That's a good point, but it's double-edged.  You can bill for all of your time and never lose money, but you will probably end up losing clients who don't want to get an invoice in the mail for a phone call or a meeting.  I never bill for consultations, I expect that I will impress the client enough that they will want to go with me, and I make my time spent during consultation back in the prices that I charge to do the project.  Obviously not every client goes through with the project (the majority of them do not).  I can have 5 or 6 consultations that never come to fruition, but then when I land a $30,000 project it balances things out.The single hardest thing about the process is gaining the client's trust without breaking your bank.  You can do things for free to try to get the job, but you still might not even get it and then you're out of pocket.  So you have to gain their trust with the minimum time spent possible.  One thing that really helps here is to have experience doing what they want and the references to back it up.  But that also takes time, your first year or two you won't have references.  The thing that has hurt me the most in gaining trust is the legion of terrible web developers out there.  No offense to anyone here, but it seems like every 14 year old kid who teaches himself HTML is trying to sell someone a web page, and those customers end up very distrustful about web developers because the kid didn't know what he was doing in the first place, even though he told them (and he thought) that he did, and he ends up screwing everything up and the client gets ripped off.  So then when I come around and I say I'm charging $125/hour but you will get what you pay for, I can almost hear their thought process about the last experience they had.  Their eyes say it all, they got burned in the past by someone who didn't know what they were doing and now they don't trust me because of that.  But granted, when you make a customer like that happy, they tell everyone about you.

You make excellent points and I can't agree more. I've been in the same situation when sitting across the table from a client when quoting a project.I do not think it is realistic to bill for every minute - or 15 minute intervals as I do - when it comes to consultation. But there is a fine line between a conversation you have with a client that can be written off and one where the client is trying to get something for nothing - pushing your generosity to the limit. I tend to base the decision to bill the client for the minimum 15 minute interval on who initiated the conversation and what was its intent and outcome. I openly explain to my clients that I will charge them for the "what if" and "what then" conversations. Its my tacit knowledge that they are tapping into after all. This, actually is extremely helpful as it conditions my clients to come to me with something real. If they want me to hold their hand through a brainstorm (light drizzle in many cases) then thats fine if they want to pay for it. They know I am all about solutions, not small talk - thats why they trust me.There are three types of web developers out there:a.) one that pretends to be your buddy to and oversells him/herself.b.) one that wow's you with technology speak and impressive portfolios who will trap you and over run your budgetc.) meJust kidding about the last part - put thats the attitude you have to take sometimes.

[vchris]

WOW! Awesome essay guys Seriously this helps me a lot to know what I'm getting into. I also had a couple contracts but they were both cheap contracts. ~500$. We have some agencies here especially for web designers, I could go and put my name in. I have also heard of those 14 year old guys trying to design web sites and screwing everything up. I have redesigned a site from a guy who had that problem and was extremely happy with the results! I have enough xp to create a great website, I know that now.Justsomeguy, do you do that full time? Do you have a team working on the sites or only yourself?

[Little Goat]

so does that mean 14 year old guys shouldn't design for people?or should they just know what they're doing first?

[justsomeguy]

But there is a fine line between a conversation you have with a client that can be written off and one where the client is trying to get something for nothing - pushing your generosity to the limit.

That's a good point. You can't say enough about protecting yourself. On that topic, you should never start work if you haven't already received payments. Most of my projects get broken into 4 deliverables or iterations, where I receive 1/4 total cost before starting work on each. That way, the customer only pays for what they get, and you get compensated for your time regardless of whether the customer sees it through to the end.

Justsomeguy, do you do that full time?

I program in general full-time, but the freelance stuff for my own business is usually nights and 3-day weekends.

Do you have a team working on the sites or only yourself?

Typically it's only myself, but if I feel like I need some help, there is plenty out there. Register yourself on some PHP newsgroups or job posting lists, people advertise for help there all the time. Your city might even have a local PHP users group that meets to discuss jobs, technology, etc.

so does that mean 14 year old guys shouldn't design for people?

Not necessarily, there are certainly competent 14-year old web developers out there, just not very many.

or should they just know what they're doing first?

Bingo. Until then, find some work as an intern or help others until your experience reaches the point where you are comfortable to go it alone. If you have to stop and ask for help, you probably aren't to that point yet. That doesn't mean you need to know everything though, as long as you know where to look for things you don't know. PHP.net is my single most-used resource, followed very closely by Google. There's no shame in programming for $9/hour to get experience, and you have plenty of time ahead of you, so don't worry if you aren't making big bucks straight away. A few years worth of practical experience will bring you tremendous gains.Also, if you can find a local PHP user's group or something like that, you can probably find other people like yourself, and instead of going solo hook up with one or two other guys who you think you can trust and start a business. And get it in writing! Contracts, contracts, contracts.

[boen_robot]

I know I'm going a bit offtopic by saying that, but I think 14 year old's true problem is not admitting their skill level.For example, currently my dad "assigned" me the task of making a small website for his accountants, but I warned him to warn them that I'm not good in the "design", but more at the "coding" and "transofrming content to presentation" parts. And that I don't have any skills with more "advanced" things such as form handling*.A 14 year old that wants to go with a "get rich quick" scheme wouldn't be that modest like myself (a 16 year old... just a reminder). That would probably also be the reason for a customer to think of him as professional "by default", thus making him "hard to trust" when he finds truly skilled developers.*That's the simplest way of explaining to the unfammiliar with web terminology. I mean imagine me telling him "I don't know much server and client side scripting". He would be like "what are you talking about?" .

[justsomeguy]

I know I'm going a bit offtopic by saying that, but I think 14 year old's true problem is not admitting their skill level.

You see that a lot on here. There are several people who are claiming that they have "mastered" one or more languages. Maybe it's just a definition thing, but I think someone "masters" something when they have been doing it their entire adult life. I like to think I've got a pretty good grasp of PHP, but I would never claim that I have "mastered" it because I can look at myself 2 or 3 or 4 years ago. Back then, I thought I was doing pretty good too, but if I look back on myself I really didn't know anything. My code from those days tells me that, even though at the time I thought the code was pretty damn advanced. 2 or 3 years down the road, I'll probably think of myself today the same way, that I really didn't know that much, at least relatively.I think there's a saying.. you don't know anything until you realize you know nothing. Anyway, it keeps me grounded in reality.

[ben3001]

if your asking for my opinon, in the digital age we live in today it is very hard to just make money via online.the amount of sites that are here today gone tomorrow is always increassing.In my opinion the only way to make money online is if you establish a business for your self offline and then have the upgrade to a E-commerce site.This way you will of already made an image for yourself and hopefully have customers already.As i say the internet now is far to big to be creating an online business out of nothing, you must work upwards

[justsomeguy]

It depends what you're doing. If all you're doing is building websites, then you can have an online storefront, and you will probably also want to meet customers in person. For the first couple years I was in business, there were hardly any expenses. We already had computers, and that was pretty much all we needed. All we paid for was hosting and server space, and since we charge our clients more to host than it costs us, we make money there too.

[dcole.ath.cx]

Ads are always a good way to go, then just by having people come to your site, you get money... W3schools makes $3 a day per charactor of adverting on there site, that's alot of money! My guess would be around $2000 a day per page (or all pages, I'm not up on how it work, maybe they put your ad on all pages...)But there comes alot of work with that too... more visitor, more bandwidth needed. You need a good point to your site, it has to be easy to use...

[perpetualnoob]

Ads are always a good way to go, then just by having people come to your site, you get money... W3schools makes $3 a day per charactor of adverting on there site, that's alot of money! My guess would be around $2000 a day per page (or all pages, I'm not up on how it work, maybe they put your ad on all pages...)But there comes alot of work with that too... more visitor, more bandwidth needed. You need a good point to your site, it has to be easy to use...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At Digital Point they make it look so easy to make those adsense bucks but also it's to their advantage to do so.Skemcin and justsomeguy, thanks for the realistic point of view.