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Hi everyone! This is my second post on this forum, and my first thread! I am a semi experienced coder in both (X)HTML, and CSS having done many web pages for simply learning purposes, and for my local Zeitgeist Chapter http://www.zeitgeist-toronto.com. In simple; I won't be needing so much in-depth explanation; simply code will do. So let me get started. If you visit http://www.beta.zeit...oronto.com/test (note this will be updated constantly, and possibly with the solution. feel free to take my code and use it for yourself ) you will notice that there is no real space between my 'contentWrapper' and the 'footer'. Now logically I would figure I need to add a 'margin' to create the space. Well that would work if I did not have two columns in the 'contentWrapper', and needed to use 'clear: left;' which negates my 'margin'. Now I already know the normal solution is to add a 'div' between the 'contentWrapper' and the 'footer' right? Well I don't want to do that. Maybe I have to, but I am challenging the community to find a way to do it without that additional 'div' and to possibly explain why 'margins' can't work when I use 'clear: left;'. My opinion, you mite as well prevent 'padding' and 'boarders' working then if you stop 'margins'. Anyway hope to hear some ideas. PeaceMichael Snape (zip of all the necessary files; no images) betazeittortest.zip