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I agree wholeheartedly. As someone who also designs web pages I have felt the anger and frustration when I design a page and test it in Firefox and Opera and it looks good and then as soon as I open up IE everything is wrong. It's Microsoft's fault for not making standards STANDARD. For you to also disregard standards as much as you have I also have a strong dislike for your browser. This is not me saying that you haven't done anything good with it. It is definitely creative and something different, however you can't come waltzing in praising it as the best browser on the face of the planet when it will cause so many problems for so many people.
If IE is causing any problem for your work then you should think of some ways to overcome this problem and make your life easier. Is it appropriate to shout at everybody who is using IE engine for one reason or another?I have written a million lines or so to use IE engine for .NET 1 and Microsoft changed its WebBrowser model in .NET 2. Am I shouting at Microsoft that I re-written a million lines again with some extra functionality and improved outlook of my software?No. I initially designed this software to cope with such drastic changes by Microsoft. These things people learn from each other and not start bullying just because of some hidden agenda.In a previous post, I pointed out that here is a useful tool "The Web Tailor" in my browser that you (third person) should look into, using it might save you some time and effort when you are dealing with IE. What answer Have I got?

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what accusation? You are the one whole claimed to be the "fanatic" thinking outside the box and being innovative and being persecuted for your vision.Being certain of yourself doesn't make you right and taking precautions is not a bad thing either.to that I'll respond with your own words...
Being innovative is the word that I used for myself, "fanatic" and "thinking out side the box" are accusations that you are spreading of your own initiative.

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NotJustBrowsing it is obvious that we will never agree on any of these issues so best of luck with your browser. I have spent far too much time arguing with you.

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Hah, that's exactly what I thought when I read the Russell quote. You seem very certain of yourself NotJustBrowsing.
"... fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves"Does "are alwayws" in Russell's quote mean anything ?

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Mozilla released Gecko 1.8.1.2 onFebruary 23, 2007 and are working on 1.9 for the projected Novemeber 2007 release of Firefox ..
I am working on providing multiple engines to choose from for each page, Can you please provide a link for Geck 1.8.1.2 ActiveX ?I like Firefox too but the question is that can I embed Gecko successfully in my application without compromising its advanced functionalities? If I am lucky, you will see both engines in next version.Don't give up, disagreements are part of life too. Now I know how much trouble "you people" are in, I will try to ease some of it in next version of my software, if I succeeded in embedding Gecko (here I am not certain).

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"... fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves"Does "are alwayws" in Russell's quote mean anything ?
Sure. And since all I know of you is what I've read on this forum, I feel, in the context of this forum, it is safe to assume that you are always this way. If you truly took that quote to heart, you would recognize that your quoting of it was misplaced as you have shown yourself, in this conversation, to have absolutely no doubt that your way is the best way.By the way, thanks for bringing up Russell. It reminds me that I have a few essays of his on my bookshelves that I have neglected for far too long.

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I am working on providing multiple engines to choose from for each page, Can you please provide a link for Geck 1.8.1.2 ActiveX ?
Gecko does not support ActiveX, and neither does any other borwser engine. ActiveX is another one of Microsoft's IE only features. Alot of things that require ActiveX can be done natively through JavaScript in standards compliant browsers. IE need ActiveX because MS JScript (IE's implementation of JavaScript) is lacking alot of new features. IE6 support the equivelant of JavaScript 1.3 (I believe) while Firefox and Opera were supporting the JavaScript 1.5 spec. IE7 made little or no improvements to it's JScript engine and they are not planning to release IE8 for atleast 18-24 months so it will be another long wait and much hoping that IE can deliver better support in the next version.

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if I succeeded in embedding Gecko (here I am not certain).
You see this is at the root of the problem. We shouldn't need to have multiple rendering engines in a browser. MS is the last hold out to web standards. If they would fix Trident (or probably easier start over from scratch) to support standards and be able to release updates and new versions more than every 3-5 years then there wouldn't be any problem at all.

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I have a little browser sniffer that I implemented into our bug tracking for our product and, according to it, the following is true:

IE6JScript Version: 5.6EMCAScript Version: 1.2DOM Version: 1.0Firefox 1.8JScript Version: 0.0EMCAScript Version: 1.5DOM Version: 1.0

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I have a little browser sniffer that I implemented into our bug tracking for our product and, according to it, the following is true:
okay IE was even worse than I thought.Actually according to what I just read Firefox 2 is supposed to be supporting JavaScript 1.7

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EMCAScript Version 1.2
Heh, it would appear that I have a bug in my bug tracking tool. Should have read "ECMAScript Version". Ironic.

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Gecko does not support ActiveX, and neither does any other borwser engine. ActiveX is another one of Microsoft's IE only features. Alot of things that require ActiveX can be done natively through JavaScript in standards compliant browsers. IE need ActiveX because MS JScript (IE's implementation of JavaScript) is lacking alot of new features. IE6 support the equivelant of JavaScript 1.3 (I believe) while Firefox and Opera were supporting the JavaScript 1.5 spec. IE7 made little or no improvements to it's JScript engine and they are not planning to release IE8 for atleast 18-24 months so it will be another long wait and much hoping that IE can deliver better support in the next version.
What I mean is that Gecko Engine in the form of ActiveX component, so I can embed it in my application. I have Mozilla ActiveX Control 1.7.12 downloaded from http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/mozilla.htm which is more than a year old.If that version is OK for you guys, to be used in my next version? Or let me know if you know a relatively new version of it.

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You see this is at the root of the problem. We shouldn't need to have multiple rendering engines in a browser. MS is the last hold out to web standards. If they would fix Trident (or probably easier start over from scratch) to support standards and be able to release updates and new versions more than every 3-5 years then there wouldn't be any problem at all.
To tackle the companies like Microsoft, you should think smarter. Say, If in my software's next version I have two engines (Gecko, IE). And you people who are in terrible trouble, start writing web pages that are suitable for both browsers but can be seen best in the browser which support "Standards" (say Gecko). When people will see good looking pages in one and bad looking in another, they will use the one that gives them best result.Next thing "you people (the community in trouble)" can do is to raise the amount of money that you charge per page for making a web page compliant with (say IE). Because, it takes much more effort of yours.Pray that when Firefox become dominent, it may not play the same dirty game as the current dominent is playing.

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Um, okay, so I'm experiencing something weird with Opera. My adress bar disappeared. I mean, I still have the navigation buttons (back, next, update, magic wand) and the search dropdown bar, but the main adress field is gone, and I can't seem to get it back. Anyone able to help? I tried downloading and upgrading Opera (no new version, just installing over the old), and that didn't help either. I really don't want to have to uninstall and install Opera, because I have many icons on my personal toolbar that I don't want to lose. :|

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Later last year, my old PC was all of five years old, had become corrupted, and the time had come to replace it. So, I went to my local PC dealer, and purchased the latest Microsoft PC, which, as of October 2006, included the latest, Internet Explorer 7 browser. Thank goodness, there is a thread here at W3 Schools, to express my absolute horror at the latest Microsoft IE7 product!!It is bad enough to use Outlook Express, as E-mail, but just wait until you try MSN, or any of the other higher-order, Microsoft E-mail products!! Indeed, within a matter of days, my brand new PC went E-nuts, completely bonkers, which called for a brand new hard drive!!I thank you for allowing this rant to me, and I wait for a time when Microsoft either vanishes, or goes open source!!:-)

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Internet Explorer 7 does have its improvements, but overall, in terms of any changes to W3C Standards Compliance or any other jargon that we Web Developers are concerned about, there's no upgrade there; the browser actually re-uses old IE6 code... but they skipped the Transparent PNG overlay feature (thank goodness!), and just re-vamped the UI on it.I prefer Mozilla Firefox, even over Opera... there's tons of addons, themes, and extensions you can get for it, including little Web Developer goodies like the Web Developer Toolbar, and the XML Developer Toolbar... very handy tools to have if you're into Web Design.

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Um, okay, so I'm experiencing something weird with Opera. My adress bar disappeared. I mean, I still have the navigation buttons (back, next, update, magic wand) and the search dropdown bar, but the main adress field is gone, and I can't seem to get it back. Anyone able to help? I tried downloading and upgrading Opera (no new version, just installing over the old), and that didn't help either. I really don't want to have to uninstall and install Opera, because I have many icons on my personal toolbar that I don't want to lose. :|
Try Tools->Appearance->Toolbars. You can enable to show hidden toolbars if necessary. If you can't get it back, you can drag another one onto an existing toolbar from the Buttons tab in the Appearances panel.

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Try Tools->Appearance->Toolbars. You can enable to show hidden toolbars if necessary. If you can't get it back, you can drag another one onto an existing toolbar from the Buttons tab in the Appearances panel.
Thanks, worked it out. :)

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When using this tool "The Web Tailor", you take a piece out of any web page, you can view this part of the page using style sheet of your choice and also using w3c_standard.css .I told you because you might use it in a beneficial way for your own good. For example, you can use this tool to see the effects of different style sheets on a page element (or page). Perhaps it will improve your efficiency.The issue I am trying to address in my browser is how to avoid short falls if people don't follow standards.
That's like putting lipstick on a pig and calling it pretty. Allowing the user to change the stylesheet does not fix any problems. It doesn't change the fact that the underlying engine can't render the standard CSS correctly. Not only that, but users will not understand what CSS is or what it's for, they won't change it, like you said they won't know or care what the W3C is or what they have to say. Those things are important to developers, not to users. How do I know that users won't switch stylesheets? Because Opera has had that functionality for several years, and granted when I first got Opera I was having fun switching between the 8-bit nostalgia style, text-based CSS sheet, or debug CSS sheet or whatever, but I don't go around changing CSS sheets, not even me as a developer. That would just confuse a normal user. If I get to someone's site that is horribly designed and I'm just there for some information, I will just disable CSS altogether, get what I'm there to get, and leave.
What will you do now that you bashed me about "standards" for three pages of your forum and found now that I am the one following and preaching standards as much as I possibly can?
What? Are you being serious? Do you think that providing 2 links to W3C sites and allowing a user to switch to a W3C-approved stylesheet is "following and preaching standards as much as you possibly can?" This coming from the person who doesn't understand what the difference is between second and third generation browsers.
Unfortunately, "Justsomeguy" lost his temper while reporting a bug to me that he should report to Microsoft.
So you choose to use a poorly-implemented rendering engine, and when I tell you that it is poorly implemented and you should be using something else, you refer me to the vendor? Whatever, it was your choice to use Trident, not mine.
Will you go to a customer and tell him that the page you designed is according to the standards but you have to use Firefox to view this page correctly?
No, I'll spend more time and effort then I need to getting the thing to work with IE also, and bill the customer for the extra time. I make money off supporting IE, but that's not what I want to do with my time, I do that because it's a required part of the business that I'm in.
w3c_standard.css is not a custom file it is provided by w3c to be followed, is it bad to have that mentioned in my software?
Of course it's not bad, but it doesn't solve any problems.
When did I promote IE? I am using IE engine only because it is most widely used (80%) engine available.
This is completely my opinion, but I believe that you are using IE because it was the easiest and you couldn't get Gecko to work. IE is not the most popular because it is good, it is the most popular because Microsoft has expended a tremendous amount of money to make sure people use it. It's the same reason why Microsoft, right now, is offering corporations bribes if they can get their employees to use Windows Live search instead of Google. That doesn't make Windows Live search better. You are promoting IE, because you chose it and you are using it. That is promotion. Gecko can render the web just fine, if you had used that one then it would have been a much better choice.
Why do you hate a browser that is used by 80%, and your job moves around browsers?
Why do you think that is? Maybe because it makes our jobs more difficult?
Only name "NotJustBrowsing" should have been enough for some people to open up their minds.
Go back and read from the start. Our minds were open, you would not see anyone else's point of view.

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If IE is causing any problem for your work then you should think of some ways to overcome this problem and make your life easier.
I'm glad you feel that way. One way to do that is to try and educate people who are doing things like creating new browsers based on inferior technology. If people were not using Microsoft's engine, then maybe that would make them think twice about it. But if people are going to continue to base new products off it even though it is the most inferior engine around, then there's not a whole lot we can do to argue with Microsoft about that.
Is it appropriate to shout at everybody who is using IE engine for one reason or another?
Well, yeah, if someone has a choice between Gecko and Trident, and they choose Trident, yeah, I'll shout at them.
Say, If in my software's next version I have two engines (Gecko, IE). And you people who are in terrible trouble, start writing web pages that are suitable for both browsers but can be seen best in the browser which support "Standards" (say Gecko). When people will see good looking pages in one and bad looking in another, they will use the one that gives them best result.
I've got a better idea. How about you drop Trident altogether, stick with Gecko, and help put pressure on Microsoft with everyone else.
Next thing "you people (the community in trouble)" can do is to raise the amount of money that you charge per page for making a web page compliant with (say IE). Because, it takes much more effort of yours.
I do, compensation is not an issue. The point is I don't want to spend half my day looking for IE hacks when I could be writing new software.
Pray that when Firefox become dominent, it may not play the same dirty game as the current dominent is playing.
An open source community cannot become a monopoly.

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I've got a better idea. How about you drop Trident altogether, stick with Gecko, and help put pressure on Microsoft with everyone else.
This is one of my aims to initiate directness between parties of all kind. After all I was here to listen to what people say and I will act upon what I heard. I also found 39%, 26% and 46% (2005, 2006, 2007) of my visitors using Mozilla , which I should not ignore.What you are saying is within the design of my browser, not in its entirety though but it will be sufficient to pressurise all parties. Thank you for your loud and clear opinion, I hope the resulting product will be pleasent for all.This is one reason that I wonder arround in public and not for product advertisement.Now to show you that everything is not rossy, I am quoting Gecko ActiveX component's lack of implementation. I hope that you will pressurise other party to be active as well. Notice the amount of "System::NotImplementedException".
[system::__ComObject^]0x0012d9e4 { m_ObjectToDataMap=<undefined value> } System::__ComObject^Script <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^activeElement <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::IHTMLElement^+ alinkColor {System::String^} System::Object^+ all 0x009b3ae0 mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^+ anchors 0x009b3ae0 mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^+ applets 0x009b3ae0 mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^+ bgColor {System::String^} System::Object^+ body 0x009b3ae0 mshtml::IHTMLElement^charset <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^cookie <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^defaultCharset <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^designMode <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^domain <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^+ embeds 0x009b3b2c mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^ expando <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> bool+ fgColor {System::String^} System::Object^fileCreatedDate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^fileModifiedDate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^fileSize <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^fileUpdatedDate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^+ forms 0x009b3a4c mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^frames <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::FramesCollection^+ images 0x009b3a80 mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^lastModified "Tuesday, March 20, 2007 19:49:48" System::String^+ linkColor {System::String^} System::Object^+ links 0x009b3a80 mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^location <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::HTMLLocation^mimeType <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^nameProp <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^onafterupdate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onbeforeupdate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onclick <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^ondblclick <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^ondragstart <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onerrorupdate <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onhelp <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onkeydown <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onkeypress <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onkeyup <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onmousedown <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onmousemove <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onmouseout <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onmouseover <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onmouseup <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onreadystatechange <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onrowenter <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onrowexit <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^onselectstart <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::Object^parentWindow <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::IHTMLWindow2^plugins <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^protocol <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^readyState <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^referrer <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^scripts <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::IHTMLElementCollection^security <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^+ selection 0x009b3b4c mshtml::IHTMLSelectionObject^styleSheets <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> mshtml::HTMLStyleSheetsCollection^title "Yahoo!" System::String^url <error: an exception of type: System::NotImplementedException^ occurred> System::String^+ vlinkColor {System::String^} System::Object^

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I haven't done any development with any version of the Gecko engine or the Mozilla platform in general, either the source files or an ActiveX component. But I seriously doubt that implementing the engine would be as simple as swapping out a component, to my knowledge there aren't any standards defined with regard to the interface or API that an engine component should offer. But, since Mozilla is an open-source foundation, I would expect there to be quite a bit of support from the community for people who are developing new products with those technologies, I'm sure everyone there is more then happy to help someone pursue a non-Microsoft alternative. These might be helpful:http://www.mozilla.org/projects/embedding/http://www.mozilla.org/community/developer-forums.htmlhttp://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Embedding_Mozillahttp://www.codeguru.com/Cpp/controls/contr...ticle.php/c5267Good luck with the development.

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Microsoft is a difficult nut to crack.

ActiveX Control ImplementationNot just a similar APIAn identical one! That's right, the Mozilla control will implement the IWebBrowser and DWebBrowserEvents interfaces that Microsoft have already defined for Internet Explorer.Since the Mozilla control implements exactly the same API, it will mean that developers can take existing IE code and port it, sometimes in a matter of minutes!
Above mentioned is from http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htmMicrosoft changed everything including its web browser interface to kill the competition. MS changed its base of operating system to .NET (which is more like Java), re-defined its C++ and now abondoning it at all. In a year or two, we will see all Win32 things disappearing and that will hit very hard to all those leaning on Microsoft technology (including Gecko and the whole of Mozilla's Embedding API).So, practically Gecko ActiveX is usable for at the most two years from now. Keeping Gecko forward means re-writing it using latest .NET base and that may kill IE for good.

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Gecko's ActiveX implementation may be dying, bur certanly not Gecko itself. The engine is originally written in standart C++ I believe. We will only see .NET win32 applications cracking, mostly because .NET is changing fast, as it's not a standart. Now THAT is what standarts stand for! Independance of someone else's platform/language, portability (to another OS, main language, etc.) and interoperability (allowing you to use someone else's application for your needs or vise-versa). THAT is what web standarts stand for too. Independance of someone else's propriarity extensions (notably Micro$oft), portability (this is especially true for XML based languages, which by the use of XSLT or any XML based language/tool can be coverted to anything else) and interoperability (the same as the above).

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WHEN NECESSITY DICTATES A DESIGN, THE PRODUCT LASTS FOREVER.

 

Eight (8) years later animation_s3.gif AND animation_w8.gif

I started linear/multiple browsing in NotJustBrowsing® (2005-2006) {most recently "NotJustBrowsing Desktop" (2015)} and I hope my new technique will supersede linear browsing.

 

Nothing lasts forever. :)

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