Math Forum?

[paulmo]

Didn't there used to be a math forum on here somewhere? If not, where to find one? I could have sworn it was on W3schools.

[MrFish]

Uh... What does this have to do with php? Why haven't you googled it?

[Synook]

If you mean a sub-forum for mathematics-related discussions, then no.

[paulmo]

Yes, I meant sub-forum. Can't remember where I saw it. Thanks anyway.

[Dimon]

how is math related to php ?

[Ingolme]

As long as I've been here I never saw a Math forum. However, whichever language you need math for, just post it here.

how is math related to php ?

Well, you really can't be a good programmer if you're not proficient in math, among other things.

[jeffman]

Once upon a time, college computer science courses were to be found only in math departments.

[boen_robot]

I've been in this forum almost since its start, and I've never seen a math or even a MathML forum.If it is a MathML related question though, feel free to write in the XML forums.Offtopic://

Well, you really can't be a good programmer if you're not proficient in math, among other things.

If you ask me, it's more of the other way around... math these days is devolved to a level of "you compute this that way", not "think how to this was formed", which is what programming is all about, and what math should be. I recently watched a TEDTalk of Conrad Wolfram (co-creator of Wolfram Mathematica) who believes the same thing, but the video is not posted yet (I have an associate membership...).You don't have to be good at math to be a good programmer... but it doesn't hurt of course. What you need to be a good programmer is patience, and the desire to "search, read, try, (re)read, repeat".

[Dimon]

As long as I've been here I never saw a Math forum. However, whichever language you need math for, just post it here.Well, you really can't be a good programmer if you're not proficient in math, among other things.

you are right.... but a forum dedicated to "maths" under php ?

I've been in this forum almost since its start, and I've never seen a math or even a MathML forum.If it is a MathML related question though, feel free to write in the XML forums.Offtopic://If you ask me, it's more of the other way around... math these days is devolved to a level of "you compute this that way", not "think how to this was formed", which is what programming is all about, and what math should be. I recently watched a TEDTalk of Conrad Wolfram (co-creator of Wolfram Mathematica) who believes the same thing, but the video is not posted yet (I have an associate membership...).You don't have to be good at math to be a good programmer... but it doesn't hurt of course. What you need to be a good programmer is patience, and the desire to "search, read, try, (re)read, repeat".

thank you for the colored words, i'm a newbie and everything helps....this is the second time i'm trying to learn php... first time i left it in about a month

[justsomeguy]

The thought processes required to be good at math are the same thought processes required to be good at programming, or designing algorithms. Algorithms (and programs) are, in fact, mathematical formulas. You may not need to take formal math classes to be good at programming, but the people who are able to solve complex math problems are the same types of brains that solve complex programming problems. Math problems have operators like equality, addition, subtraction, etc, they have variables, they have functions like SIN and TAN, etc. Sound familiar?On a semi-related note, I saw this article a while ago. Bad sign for future programmers..http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/08/13/13...l-Sign?from=rss

If you ask me, it's more of the other way around... math these days is devolved to a level of "you compute this that way"

I think it's fair to say educational systems in general are devolving, things are being dumbed down and simplified so that students can get better grades and feel good about themselves and feel like they're ready for the next step, even though they know less than the previous generation of students.

[boen_robot]

The thought processes required to be good at math are the same thought processes required to be good at programming, or designing algorithms. Algorithms (and programs) are, in fact, mathematical formulas. You may not need to take formal math classes to be good at programming, but the people who are able to solve complex math problems are the same types of brains that solve complex programming problems.

Good point - to make things useful to end users, you don't need math, but to make things useful to any developer (algoritms in particular), you should know your math well, or at least have the same kind of mindset.

things are being dumbed down and simplified so that students can get better grades

"Simplified"? You call memorizing symbols and doing computations simplification? Dumbing down maybe, but simplified is not a word I'd use to describe any middle school, high school or university math class (elementary school is sort of OK, but the problem is it sets on the "compute this" mentality...).I think the reason is more of... err... let's say "unification" and "measurability". Government wants to be able to say "(s)he knows more", "(s)he can do job X", "teacher X is better than teacher Y". Unfortunatly, every teacher and student is different. The simplifications we're doing here when members ask us questions may not be understandable to another member reading the topic, and we all have different ways of clarifiying things. Same with a class room of any subject - a teacher may say things in ways that are understandable to 90% of students in one class, and 10% of another class. Governments demand a way of teaching and "success" measurement whereby the greatest percentage of people will understand... without realizing that the other people also have potential, but need stuff told in a different, non standardised way.

[justsomeguy]

"Simplified"? You call memorizing symbols and doing computations simplification?

I would say that the fact that 70% of US students leave math classes without an understanding of what the equal sign means definitely indicates that the curriculum is being simplified. Frankly, it seems like some teachers don't care whether or not the students understand the material, they just pass the students along regardless. There are plenty of good teachers out there still, but it seems like there is a focus on making the curriculum easier rather than making sure students learn what they need to.

[boen_robot]

That's true too I guess... because the plain logic is that "if they don't understand, it's because it's said in a hard way. There must be a way that would be easier for everybody"... and it's with the last bit that everything is falling apart. The moment you make it easier for one, you're making it harder for everyone who did understood it before that point... teachers need to paraphrase things in different simplified ways, depending on who's asking, not repeat what they've read from the textbook or other sources that they've encountered. And textbooks need to have things in a more practical fashion - they need to aid the students into assembling the stuff they need to know, not "fill in" knowledge in their heads.[And yes... this is a rant mainly inspired and aimed at the current state of the teachers and textbooks for the stuff that I'm personally failing at - Calculus and (Curved) Geometry - I think I'll never pass those...]

[jeffman]

As a college professor, I have access to data a lot of people don't. An alarming trend I'm seeing is students who earn high school averages above 3.5 (out of 4.0, if you don't know) yet earn ACT scores below 10 (out of 36, with 21 being the national average). How can "honor students" earn such incredibly low scores? I think that's proof enough that curricula are pretty dumbed down.

[ShadowMage]

I've got to throw my 2 cents in.One of my biggest gripes is this ADD/ADHD bull**** that's being thrown around all the time. ADD/ADHD is a made up "illness" that serves no other purpose than an excuse to prescribe Ritalin so the kid sits down and shuts up. Like you guys are saying, kids don't all learn in the same way. What works for some, won't work for others. Kids that learn by doing (those who supposedly have ADD/ADHD) may become booksmart, but have absolutely zero working knowledge in the real world, because they were never allowed to learn the way that they learn best.@DDI think the reason that you're seeing that trend is because the ACT and SAT use more real-world problems, while the curriculums in schools are (as you stated) dumbed down and provide a "this is the way you do it" type of problem. There's no logical thinking about how a problem should be solved. Kids have one technique pounded into their heads and are incapable of 'thinking outside the box'.

[boen_robot]

Yeah, the discussion we're basically having here is a combination of what many (allegedly good) teachers say:http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robi...creativity.htmlhttp://www.ted.com/talks/dan_meyer_math_cu...m_makeover.htmlhttp://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/arthur_b..._education.htmlhttp://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/sugata_m...themselves.html(plus a few more that aren't published yet for some reason)

[justsomeguy]

I also just got a robocall from some senator or another about how he's got a great program to fix local math programs. Now that's timely.

[End User]

One of my biggest gripes is this ADD/ADHD bull**** that's being thrown around all the time. ADD/ADHD is a made up "illness" that serves no other purpose than an excuse to prescribe Ritalin so the kid sits down and shuts up.

I assure you that ADD/ADHD is not a "made up" illness or disorder; the problem is that it frequently seems to be "over diagnosed". I've worked with genuine ADD/ADHD kids and trust me, it's not all just an excuse to prescribe medication. They have measurable, easily identifiable learning deficits, short concentration spans, and an abnormally low threshold for distraction. In short, there are indeed people who most certainly DO have learning disorders that interfere with their ability to concentrate and absorb or retain information. That said, I personally suspect that only ten to fifteen percent of children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD actually have the disorder...the majority of them have other issues or exhibit personality types that simply don't mesh well with traditional learning methods, such as sitting in a seat for hours at a time concentrating on a small set of tasks. Seriously, unless you've worked with ADD/ADHD children yourself, don't tell me they don't exist. They do. They're just not nearly as common as society in general tends to think they are.

[ShadowMage]

I assure you that ADD/ADHD is not a "made up" illness or disorder; the problem is that it frequently seems to be "over diagnosed". I've worked with genuine ADD/ADHD kids and trust me, it's not all just an excuse to prescribe medication. They have measurable, easily identifiable learning deficits, short concentration spans, and an abnormally low threshold for distraction. In short, there are indeed people who most certainly DO have learning disorders that interfere with their ability to concentrate and absorb or retain information. That said, I personally suspect that only ten to fifteen percent of children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD actually have the disorder...the majority of them have other issues or exhibit personality types that simply don't mesh well with traditional learning methods, such as sitting in a seat for hours at a time concentrating on a small set of tasks. Seriously, unless you've worked with ADD/ADHD children yourself, don't tell me they don't exist. They do. They're just not nearly as common as society in general tends to think they are.

Perhaps I should've been a little more careful with my word choices. I apologize. I do agree that some children do indeed have learning disabilities which make it very hard to concentrate. I meant it as more of an exaggeration of sorts to say that it is way over-diagnosed.

[boen_robot]

I assure you that ADD/ADHD is not a "made up" illness or disorder; the problem is that it frequently seems to be "over diagnosed". I've worked with genuine ADD/ADHD kids and trust me, it's not all just an excuse to prescribe medication. They have measurable, easily identifiable learning deficits, short concentration spans, and an abnormally low threshold for distraction. In short, there are indeed people who most certainly DO have learning disorders that interfere with their ability to concentrate and absorb or retain information. That said, I personally suspect that only ten to fifteen percent of children diagnosed with ADD/ADHD actually have the disorder...the majority of them have other issues or exhibit personality types that simply don't mesh well with traditional learning methods, such as sitting in a seat for hours at a time concentrating on a small set of tasks. Seriously, unless you've worked with ADD/ADHD children yourself, don't tell me they don't exist. They do. They're just not nearly as common as society in general tends to think they are.

topicswitch://Ourt of curiousity, has anyone tried to train these kids in some forms of art? Ideally, put them in a room full of artists just painting random stuff or dancers practicing... There's an anecdote related to that in one of the TEDTalks linked above...I'd assume that if you've worked with such kids you'll know of such experiments or better yet - actually tried that, and can share the results.

[End User]

Our of curiousity, has anyone tried to train these kids in some forms of art? Ideally, put them in a room full of artists just painting random stuff or dancers practicing... There's an anecdote related to that in one of the TEDTalks linked above...I'd assume that if you've worked with such kids you'll know of such experiments or better yet - actually tried that, and can share the results.

I've not been personally involved in anything like this, although I've read a few articles that show mixed results. Here's the thing: ADD/ADHD isn't just one disorder; the term is a catch-all for a constellation of issues that end up producing more or less the same behavior: an inability to learn effectively via traditional "sit-in-the-seat" methods. Some children seem to respond to alternative teaching methods like you mention above, some don't . Think of ADD/ADHD as akin to a "rash", where a rash can have many causes (allergies, poison ivy, stress, abrasion, scabies, chemical exposure, etc). Unlike rashes, the root causes of ADD/ADHD aren't all mapped out (and may never be, who knows). In fact, even the ones that are "known" aren't a sure thing. The causes that *seem* like they're known respond to a variety of treatments that vary widely in their efficacy (from very good to utterly worthless). It's as if all rashes were treated with the same medicine, some would respond and some wouldn't, because the nature of the rash isn't the same. There are hundreds of causes of rashes, possibly thousands. You can't use the same treatment on all of them. This is the mistake of treating the symptom instead of the cause. Ritalin doesn't work on all ADD/ADHD children, not by a long shot. But it does work on some. And that's a fact. Every couple of years you hear about some great new treatment for ADD/ADHD that's supposed to be "The Great Fix", but you can bet your a$$ that there's never going to be "One Great Fix", there are going to have to be lots of different "fixes" or treatments, with each one being appropriate for the underlying cause of that particular behavioral deficit.

[paulmo]

Wow, this is the coolest thread I ever started. I appreciate reading the insight from those whose backgrounds are relevant to this field. I am considering a career transition into something computer related; I'm interested in going back to the well and learning algebra, differential equations, perhaps linear algebra, as those seem to be the key programming concepts. I'm also interested in obtaining a certificate in either Security, Oracle, VMWare, or Desktop Help Specialist. That might be the most direct approach to getting a job, but may be limiting as far as intellectual development. I've been an adjunct community college English instructor for 12 years; hold a Master's degree. I'm looking for a change. So which direction would you go if you were me?[delete previous ADD discussion as I was ranting a little bit.]

[End User]

As for the recent profusion of ADD, was just talking with my librarian tonight about this topic. People seem to be more empathetic to these conditions now.

That's largely because people understand them better now.

My argument is that these conditions have always existed;

Of course they have; ADD/ADHD isn't a recent thing by any means.

Our medication was to run around in the woods, build tree houses, get scraped up skateboarding, stuff like that.

That's not going to make a bit of difference for someone who truly has ADD/ADHD. Strenuous exercise doesn't mitigate ADD/ADHD. What you had was a lot of energy, not ADD. No offense, but you really don't know what you're talking about. Exercise a child with ADD/ADHD and what you'll get is a tired child with ADD/ADHD. And they'll still have the same difficulty concentrating or learning in a tightly structured environment.

I think the pharmaceutical industry is an insidious racket: medicate everyone for everything.

I'm no defender of the pharmaceutical industry by any means, but complex things like this are rarely, if ever, black and white.

[boen_robot]

I'm also interested in obtaining a certificate in either Security, Oracle, VMWare, or Desktop Help Specialist. That might be the most direct approach to getting a job, but may be limiting as far as intellectual development. I've been an adjunct community college English instructor for 12 years; hold a Master's degree. I'm looking for a change. So which direction would you go if you were me?

You don't really need any kind of certificate to be "Desktop Help Specialist", believe me. If you can undersand me and do without additional instructions when I tell you to "Enable ACHI mode in your BIOS", "Chance your LAN card's MAC address", "Reinstall Windows", "Do a RAM test", "Replace your video card", you're already qualified. And if you can't... if you at least have a basic understanding of computers, you can learn quickly if you can get a job such as a... let's call it "Desktop Help Specialist Intern". I'm lucky in having a father be the boss of exactly such kind of a firm though... it may not be as easy for you, especially if you constantly fear that you'll be fired if you screw up."Oracle" and "VMWare" have very specific technologies with very specific recognition. Are you prepared to do another carrer switch in a few years when people use [insert another company doing the same thing] instead? Nah... if you can have generic DB courses, that's great, but avoid proprietary certificates if you can, and if not - take everything you're taught as "one way to do it" (as opposed to the way to do it), and listen very well when you hear the word "standard", as this is what usually stays and/or could be your bridge to the next technology."Security" is a very broad term nowadays. There's no "Security Specialist" as a profession. There's "Network Security Specialist", "Database Security Specialist", "Desktop Software Security Specialist", "Web Security Specialist", and maybe a few more I can't think of, but the point is that every field has it's own set of security problems to deal with, and you can't be good at all.Do you not like being an English instructor? Or are there simply no vacant work spaces in your area? I mean, if there's any field that chances at an easy to follow pace, that's English literature and English language. I was first accepted with that in university, but I only left it as a backup in case I don't get in IT. While I dislike any literature, getting a diploma in that was the next best thing for me.

[paulmo]

Thanks Boen, your comments echo those of a professional programmer friend who started in C and now does bank security. He also said avoid proprietary certificates, but maybe go with database or virtualization training. I work with a Help Desk guy at my college. He always seems stressed. He has about 30 boxes of computers in his office that he needs to unpack and configure by a deadline. I like teaching but since I spend a lot of time reading about code, and recently converting my desktop and laptop to Debian Linux , I'm considering following a new path. I might want to develop apps for education. Through help on this board, I was able to put a grading calculator online that my peers can use. What do you think are the most applicable math skills for programming or for the next chapters in computers or technology in general? Maybe I will start there.