$´s for designing a website?

[eduard]

Seriously now?! If i am correct about the way you are thinking my answer is based on this calculation 200hr x 5000$ = 1000000$. If you actually see a difference between thescientist's reply, valiantshady's reply and mine, (besides the values), we have a problem...I didn't even judge you about your English :S [And i won't get into that, i am pretty confident about my current skills in the language] I just said you are in a forum where most people are english-speaking so at least translate your posts to English. And a comment about your argument concerning the Greek economy. You don't live in this country, so you can't speak for this country unless you can present me some facts that actually prove what you say. If you don't understand how politics work (and i am referring to the media, the politician itself etc) it's not my fault. If you want to be a good programmer you have to start using logic, if you can't do that your chose the wrong field. This is my last post here, i am not going to argue over the internet.

No, because the facts aren´t right!

[thescientist]

well, time will tell, but almost 100% certain this is what everyone is thinking, I know I am...

I am afraid if the client accepts your price, we'll have to do with a new wave of non-sense posts. If you ever finish the website, it will probably be 95% work done by this forum's member (if there is still patience) and the rest 5% from you. I am not a mean person but seriously, this kind of attitude makes me go crazy.

[eTianbun]

One of the few things i dislike, is the way you keep saying people are critisizing you. Nobody is doing that, nobody care if you leave in USA, or argentina and nobody cares if your ENGLISH is currect or not, because english, is just one language and they are so many others. It is not a must, that you speak another country's language, but since people in this forum, prefer/use english, then you should write in english (whether good or bad). The second thing i dislike is, you arque and complain too much. Every knows that, thats why each time you post a question, some dont even what to reply, and if they dont, you get angry and start saying all sort of thing, and when they do, you dont listen and you arque/complain. Just learn to control your temper, Because you are not the only one in this forum!

[divinedesigns1]

fully agree, and i dont think that person wouldnt accept his price "im not sayin you cant get a project but people nowaday do not want a website like how you create them, they want a website that stands out and are interactive" but if you have a pro at yourself then they prolly going to accept it, if you present them with a purposal anyway GOODLUCK and i hope you do well "do not allow the pro to do all the work or your cut will be 20:80, where you'll have the 20 and the pro have the 80

[divinedesigns1]

One of the few things i dislike, is the way you keep saying people are critisizing you. Nobody is doing that, nobody care if you leave in USA, or argentina and nobody cares if your ENGLISH is currect or not, because english, is just one language and they are so many others. It is not a must, that you speak another country's language, but since people in this forum, prefer/use english, then you should write in english (whether good or bad). The second thing i dislike is, you arque and complain too much. Every knows that, thats why each time you post a question, some dont even what to reply, and if they dont, you get angry and start saying all sort of thing, and when they do, you dont listen and you arque/complain. Just learn to control your temper, Because you are not the only one in this forum!

i totallly agreee 1000% agreeed with this statement

[eduard]

I came to this forum to learn html, css and later php. Many persons wrote me anything, but NOT about programing and I did that aswell. From now on I only ask questions about programing and I don´t reply to any other post The only reply i now give - because this post is too ridiculous: Yes, I´m going to finish my website (next week or earlier!) and a percentage of 95% is far too high! My website hasn´t got any of W3Schools. I got some help by others! By the way who has put that terrible translate thing in the posts? I never use it! READING in english is still better as spanish (hopefully it´ll change soon!)

Edited May 2, 2012 by eduardlid

[divinedesigns1]

I came to this forum to learn html, css and later php. Many persons wrote me anything, but NOT about programing and I did that aswell. From now on I only ask questions about programing and I don´t reply to any other post The only reply i now give - because this post is too ridiculous: Yes, I´m going to finish my website (next week or earlier!) and a percentage of 95% is far too high! My website hasn´t got any of W3Schools. I got some help by others! By the way who has put that terrible translate thing in the posts? I never use it! READING in english is still better as spanish (hopefully it´ll change soon!)

did you read what you said or did i misunderstood what it said?

[eduard]

did you read what you said or did i misunderstood what it said?

I always read before I say!

[valiantshady]

if you guys do not mind me saying this, but he has to calm down and understand that all of us do not have anything personal against him (neither language, country, age or anything that might come to his mind)eduard you should know that this forum is has the most helpful members there could ever be on this internet universe, but some of your arguments might be a bit umm.. weird for them as they have had past experiences. Your questions may be clear to you but cause frustration among them.. That's all the case.. and thanks everyone for helping him (i say it in his place). and thanks eduard for the question

[Guest LH91325]

What amuses me most about this topic is the last bullet point in the OP: "professional design." Just exactly how do you know when you're done? Is it professional yet? What if you and the client don't agree that it's professional? How many more hours will you put in before the client agrees? What if the client never agrees?

[justsomeguy]

How many more hours will you put in before the client agrees? What if the client never agrees?

Welcome to the software business. Also, this:

[eduard]

What amuses me most about this topic is the last bullet point in the OP: "professional design." Just exactly how do you know when you're done? Is it professional yet? What if you and the client don't agree that it's professional? How many more hours will you put in before the client agrees? What if the client never agrees?

Very simple! I don´t need clients like these!

[eduard]

Welcome to the software business. Also, this:

That I´ve to study, but I´m too tired now!

[thescientist]

Very simple! I don´t need clients like these!

Typically you don't find this out what kind of client you have until after the project has started, and an SOW has already been agreed upon. What is important is to have the capacity (within reason) to deal with clients on all levels.

That I´ve to study, but I´m too tired now!

FYI, it's a joke. Edited May 8, 2012 by thescientist

[eduard]

Typically you don't find this out what kind of client you have until after the project has started, and an SOW has already been agreed upon. What is important is to have the capacity (within reason) to deal with clients on all levels. FYI, it's a joke.

I exactly know what the price is agreed on BEFORE I´ve done anything! If not: I don´t do anything (bad experiences!) P. s. Of course I know it´s a joke! But good jokes you´ve to study, haven´t you?

[justsomeguy]

In my experience, it's not the price that you need to agree on, it's the feature set. Clients never know what they really need, so you need to cover your bases and make sure that the agreement you have covers a specific set of features. If they add or change features that are out of scope of the original agreement then you charge them extra at an agreed-upon hourly rate.

[birbal]

In my experience, it's not the price that you need to agree on, it's the feature set. Clients never know what they really need, so you need to cover your bases and make sure that the agreement you have covers a specific set of features. If they add or change features that are out of scope of the original agreement then you charge them extra at an agreed-upon hourly rate.

how does those agreement happens? are there written agreements or just oral?

[eduard]

In my experience, it's not the price that you need to agree on, it's the feature set. Clients never know what they really need, so you need to cover your bases and make sure that the agreement you have covers a specific set of features. If they add or change features that are out of scope of the original agreement then you charge them extra at an agreed-upon hourly rate.

I wrote it several times: Argentina is in no way the USA! The only thing that counts here is: money!I charge 30% before. 40% in the middle and 30% at the end of the project!

[justsomeguy]

how does those agreement happens? are there written agreements or just oral?

You need everything to be written and signed. There needs to be some level of accountability, even if it's just through email, so that when you and your client have a disagreement about what the scope is you can point to a document that they agreed to. The real challenge is making that document specific enough, that's something that is still hard for me to do. There's always some level of vagueness that you'd like to avoid.

I wrote it several times: Argentina is in no way the USA! The only thing that counts here is: money!I charge 30% before. 40% in the middle and 30% at the end of the project!

Sounds like you've got it all figured out, Eduard, I'm sure you don't need any suggestions from someone with 10 years of professional experience doing this. Have fun when your client refuses to make the final payment because they claim that you haven't done everything that they want you to do, even though you think you have.

[eduard]

You need everything to be written and signed. There needs to be some level of accountability, even if it's just through email, so that when you and your client have a disagreement about what the scope is you can point to a document that they agreed to. The real challenge is making that document specific enough, that's something that is still hard for me to do. There's always some level of vagueness that you'd like to avoid. Sounds like you've got it all figured out, Eduard, I'm sure you don't need any suggestions from someone with 10 years of professional experience doing this. Have fun when your client refuses to make the final payment because they claim that you haven't done everything that they want you to do, even though you think you have.

Very simple! Client not satisfied? He/She has to look for another ...... (20 years experience - not websites!)

[Guest LH91325]

Very simple! I don´t need clients like these!

Yeah but you just bought one for $100 of your labor. I hope you can translate that labor into receipts (income). @JSG, yeah, I've seen that before but I'm glad that somebody appreciates my point. In the real world you need to have well defined criteria for what constitutes the job being done, or otherwise it can go on forever and the end result either a dissatisfied customer or worse not getting paid for the job. Edited May 9, 2012 by LH91325

[birbal]

You need everything to be written and signed. There needs to be some level of accountability, even if it's just through email, so that when you and your client have a disagreement about what the scope is you can point to a document that they agreed to. The real challenge is making that document specific enough, that's something that is still hard for me to do. There's always some level of vagueness that you'd like to avoid.

is those written in any legal papers or just usual signed paper? how to handle this situation for outsource work where client is commuinicated by net? is those agreement covers about milestones? is there any sample example of those agreement to see how does it look? When "you" say "hard" it makes me afraid. it seems like it is completely a different skill. Edited May 9, 2012 by birbal

[eduard]

Yeah but you just bought one for $100 of your labor. I hope you can translate that labor into receipts (income). @JSG, yeah, I've seen that before but I'm glad that somebody appreciates my point. In the real world you need to have well defined criteria for what constitutes the job being done, or otherwise it can go on forever and the end result either a dissatisfied customer or worse not getting paid for the job.

I don´t understand this message!But I never paid for what kind of thing! Is your world the real world? Fortunately, I know better!

[thescientist]

It's amazing how you seem to have everything figured out, yet you still come back to ask questions for the most basic of things. Are you saying you have 20 years experience in something unrelated to websites and business and yet that somehow trumps all the real life experience some of the members of this board have?

[thescientist]

is those written in any legal papers or just usual signed paper? how to handle this situation for outsource work where client is commuinicated by net? is those agreement covers about milestones? is there any sample example of those agreement to see how does it look? When "you" say "hard" it makes me afraid. it seems like it is completely a different skill.

Typically, you would create a document as JSG suggested, that covers a summary of the project, and what the intended final deliverable is going to be. (website, application, desktop app, whatever). You would cover the features to be developed (i.e. what pages to make, what each page is expected to do, etc). You could optionally discuss how you are going to do that; i.e. using a CMS, or something like that. You can add details for what the client needs to provide, i.e. suitable hosting if they plan to use CMS XYZ that say requires PHP >= 5.x. Aside from the technical matters, you would definitely want to cover how long this will take, in hours and weeks/months. You would define phases and milestones/sprints to cover how this will be accomplished. For simplicity, say you were developing a website from scratch, you might have a couple of sprints, of three weeks each

1. Design and creation of HTML/CSS layout/template/navigation
2. Front end functionality, social media integration, JS, etc
3. Backend development (DB schema, hooking front end into backend, etc)
4. Testing, Q/A, deployment

This follows an iterative process by which you develop based on a set of features, in a logical and orderly manner. After each sprint, you might review with the client to make sure they are happy with everything presented so far. Your overview would define the expectations of each sprint, as agreed upon with the client. Typically you make provisions for clients to have some flexibility in making changes at each sprint, within reason. The ultimate point being that there is communication and co-operation through each step so there are no surprises at the end For long distance contracts, I'm there are ways to implement digital signatures to overcome forgery and document tampering, and worst case scenario, there is always snail mail, but I would definitely get define a document with specifications and expectations and have all parties sign and date it somehow.