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otherwise it can go on forever and the end result either a dissatisfied customer or worse not getting paid for the job.
When you're starting out, and relying on word of mouth, a dissatisfied customer can really hurt you. You need your customers to be happy enough to recommend you to someone else to help you build your portfolio until your portfolio can stand on its own.
is those written in any legal papers or just usual signed paper? how to handle this situation for outsource work where client is commuinicated by net? is those agreement covers about milestones? is there any sample example of those agreement to see how does it look?
You don't necessarily need things signed as long as you have an agreement that you can point to. The goal isn't to let you sue someone if they decide not to give you your final payment, the goal is to resolve disputes where your client says that they thought you were going to do something else. An email would be good enough if you send them a document or describe what you're going to do and they agree to it, anything that you can refer them back to when there is a disagreement about the scope of work. Be prepared to relent and do what they want if the original agreement is too vague, just to keep your customer happy. An example of a vague agreement would be where you say you're going to build your client a contact form on their website, without a lot of other details. They may interpret that to mean that the form will send one or more people an email, send a confirmation email to the person who filled it out, and also keep a record in the database that they can look up later. If you thought it would just send them an email then there may be a disagreement there if you didn't specify exactly what it will do. You need to define specifically what it does so that there's no confusion. The general term is a "design document" or "software specification", you should be able to find several examples and things online: http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=software+design+document&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest It's true that it's hard, and that it's a different skill, but like anything else it's a learning process. Don't expect to write the perfect design document, just pay attention to what works and what doesn't as you get experience. Some customers are more laid back than others and will work with you, others will try to hold your feet to the fire and get as much out of you as they can. It's sort of a crap shoot when it comes to customers.
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I can't understand the way you are thinking seriously. If i said charge 1million would you charge 1million to the client? On the other hand you are the one that said in Argentina things are way differ

I got yesterday this offer - it´s urgent. It´s in spanish, but you understand it!What price can I ask for it (in $ us) and how long does it take to make it? Home o página inicio 1 Galería de Fotos

Welcome to the software business. Also, this:

I´m getting sick of this topic! Before we discuss about money, I´ve to finish my website! So, please will all the members of this forum contribute to make that possible! (please all your replies to help me with php!). Thanks!

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I´m getting sick of this topic!
Then stop posting in it. There are other people asking questions and getting help. If you have a question about your site then post it in the appropriate forum.
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I´m not posting! I sent this thread 8 days ago! Now I´m only replying to (still) the posts!

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SO STOP REPLYING AND MOVE ON IF THERE'S NOTHING MORE FOR YOU HERE good lord
Ok (I´m glad to have no religion!)
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Ok (I´m glad to have no religion!)
:Pleased: can i see the site when its finish?
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  • Hosting
  • Domain Settings
  • Webmail - 3 corporate accounts

wouldnt those be part of what the client would decide on? domain settings, hosting and webmail wouldnt that already be set up and paid for?
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Guest LH91325
I don´t understand this message!But I never paid for what kind of thing! Is your world the real world? Fortunately, I know better!
What I meant is that you have committed your labor to doing the job for $100, and in the end if your customer isn't satisfied and doesn't pay you then you will have lost all your labor, equivalent to losing $100. Now rather than complaining about this topic you should just ignore it if you don't like the advice. Nobody is making you spend your time reading and replying to this except yourself. I'll be interested in hearing if you get the site done, if you get paid the $100, and in the end was it worth it?
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What I meant is that you have committed your labor to doing the job for $100, and in the end if your customer isn't satisfied and doesn't pay you then you will have lost all your labor, equivalent to losing $100. Now rather than complaining about this topic you should just ignore it if you don't like the advice. Nobody is making you spend your time reading and replying to this except yourself. I'll be interested in hearing if you get the site done, if you get paid the $100, and in the end was it worth it?
I´m not studying now so hard to design a website for just $ 100!
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Thescintist and justsomeguy thanks for giving the helpfull information. is the design document comes into project management? does it comes into analysis phase of software development? is it the design document which helps to estimate the hours of work? i mean design documents are made first to measure the work to yourself? before give them a quote or before you are hired? as it involves time investment so does those hours is counted for charge? or is it being charged to initiate it(design document) first?I am willing to know how does things work from intial point when client comes to you.

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The design document is what you and your client agree is going to be made. The process from when your client comes to you until when you start working on the product is the time to create the design document. That usually involves meetings with your client to understand what they want, asking them questions, etc, to give you the information you need. The design document can be part of the proposal that includes the price, which would also includes things like milestones. In a large company, the design document is what the sales people give the programmers to build the software. Everything the programmers need to know about the project should be in there. It's up to you whether you want to charge your clients to create that, most people probably work it into the overall price as part of the project management costs.

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(I´m glad I don´t live in the U. S.!)I do it my way!First we´ve a coffee (or something else!). We talk about it! I´m going to calculate and in a couple of days we meet again!I´ve everything on paper and the client can sign! If we don´t agree, adios!

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That's good Eduard, I'm glad that works for you. The clients I work with end up paying several tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for the systems they need, so they do expect a little bit more than a chat and a document to sign. The design documents can reach a hundred pages or more to make sure that both of us are protected.

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That's good Eduard, I'm glad that works for you. The clients I work with end up paying several tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for the systems they need, so they do expect a little bit more than a chat and a document to sign. The design documents can reach a hundred pages or more to make sure that both of us are protected.
You don´t have to defend yourself! If you are happy and I´m happy! Then we are both happy! (P. s. I haven´t come to south-america for the money! Besides there isn´t much!) (P. s. I´m very glad that I don´t have to read 100 pages!) Edited by eduardlid
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The design document is what you and your client agree is going to be made. The process from when your client comes to you until when you start working on the product is the time to create the design document. That usually involves meetings with your client to understand what they want, asking them questions, etc, to give you the information you need. The design document can be part of the proposal that includes the price, which would also includes things like milestones. In a large company, the design document is what the sales people give the programmers to build the software. Everything the programmers need to know about the project should be in there. It's up to you whether you want to charge your clients to create that, most people probably work it into the overall price as part of the project management costs.
thanks.i got it now. BTW can i know which type of system do you develop for your client?
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(P. s. I haven´t come to south-america for the money!)
that's the only reason why I thought you even got into programming. It's pretty much been a line item of almost every post you've made. Including this one, lol.
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BTW can i know which type of system do you develop for your client?
Mostly online learning systems, called learning management systems (LMS). Some clients have wanted our LMS customized specifically for their needs, like we have a version for the local community college nursing programs and hospitals to allow the schools to schedule their students for clinical rotations at the various hospitals, which isn't something the normal LMS does. Other times I've built general business management systems to support a specific client, for example one client runs a truck fleet repair business and they have some software that they use to keep track of the vehicles, repair work, etc. I built an online system that hooks into their existing database so that their customers can go on their site to see all of their invoices and vehicle status, enter third-party invoices, see an upcoming repair schedule, receive emails about future repairs, etc. Another system is a help desk system for an IT shop, where it keeps track of all of the support tickets, clients and users, what hardware everyone has, etc, and checks an email account for new help requests that it uses to create tickets and then lets the technicians in to work on specific tickets. That one will export invoices to Quickbooks, keep track of what needs to be worked on first, log the time spent working on various tickets, etc. Eventually I plan to market and sell that system myself, I've been working on it in my free time for a few years now, almost as long as I've been working on the LMS during my day job. Several years ago I also built the system that the company I work for uses to keep track of timesheets, project management, upcoming jobs, cash flow and financial reports, etc. That one was actually the first big system I designed and built, and they still use it today. I've had several failed projects also, and the reason why most of those failed is because the design document was too vague to allow us to say we've really completed anything, the customer was always expecting more and wasn't technically wrong because the design doc was too vague.
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I've had several failed projects also, and the reason why most of those failed is because the design document was too vague to allow us to say we've really completed anything, the customer was always expecting more and wasn't technically wrong because the design doc was too vague.
Exactly my point all along in this topic. Vendor and client need to have a clear and agreed upon agreement on what constitutes the job and when to know when the job is completed (in order to know when to pay vendor). Get everything else right and get this wrong and everything has failed from the vendor point of view. You gotta get paid if you wanna continue in business.
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Mostly online learning systems, called learning management systems (LMS). Some clients have wanted our LMS customized specifically for their needs, like we have a version for the local community college nursing programs and hospitals to allow the schools to schedule their students for clinical rotations at the various hospitals, which isn't something the normal LMS does. Other times I've built general business management systems to support a specific client, for example one client runs a truck fleet repair business and they have some software that they use to keep track of the vehicles, repair work, etc. I built an online system that hooks into their existing database so that their customers can go on their site to see all of their invoices and vehicle status, enter third-party invoices, see an upcoming repair schedule, receive emails about future repairs, etc. Another system is a help desk system for an IT shop, where it keeps track of all of the support tickets, clients and users, what hardware everyone has, etc, and checks an email account for new help requests that it uses to create tickets and then lets the technicians in to work on specific tickets. That one will export invoices to Quickbooks, keep track of what needs to be worked on first, log the time spent working on various tickets, etc. Eventually I plan to market and sell that system myself, I've been working on it in my free time for a few years now, almost as long as I've been working on the LMS during my day job. Several years ago I also built the system that the company I work for uses to keep track of timesheets, project management, upcoming jobs, cash flow and financial reports, etc. That one was actually the first big system I designed and built, and they still use it today. I've had several failed projects also, and the reason why most of those failed is because the design document was too vague to allow us to say we've really completed anything, the customer was always expecting more and wasn't technically wrong because the design doc was too vague.
Mostly online learning systems, called learning management systems (LMS). Some clients have wanted our LMS customized specifically for their needs, like we have a version for the local community college nursing programs and hospitals to allow the schools to schedule their students for clinical rotations at the various hospitals, which isn't something the normal LMS does. Other times I've built general business management systems to support a specific client, for example one client runs a truck fleet repair business and they have some software that they use to keep track of the vehicles, repair work, etc. I built an online system that hooks into their existing database so that their customers can go on their site to see all of their invoices and vehicle status, enter third-party invoices, see an upcoming repair schedule, receive emails about future repairs, etc. Another system is a help desk system for an IT shop, where it keeps track of all of the support tickets, clients and users, what hardware everyone has, etc, and checks an email account for new help requests that it uses to create tickets and then lets the technicians in to work on specific tickets. That one will export invoices to Quickbooks, keep track of what needs to be worked on first, log the time spent working on various tickets, etc. Eventually I plan to market and sell that system myself, I've been working on it in my free time for a few years now, almost as long as I've been working on the LMS during my day job. Several years ago I also built the system that the company I work for uses to keep track of timesheets, project management, upcoming jobs, cash flow and financial reports, etc. That one was actually the first big system I designed and built, and they still use it today. I've had several failed projects also, and the reason why most of those failed is because the design document was too vague to allow us to say we've really completed anything, the customer was always expecting more and wasn't technically wrong because the design doc was too vague.
so nice to hear about your works. motivating! do you have any personal project? if yes how do you manage those? do you write design document for those too? i guess it is not the case where anyone will need to write design documents for clients but i belive there should be something written. is there any technical term of that? how do you start to approach a problem when you develop larger system? Edited by birbal
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It would probably take longer to answer most of that then I care to write now, but the help desk system is a personal project. I should write a design document for every project, but I like to get in and just start doing it. That doesn't always work out well though, I often go back and rewrite large portions.

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but I like to get in and just start doing it. That doesn't always work out well though, I often go back and rewrite large portions
That is how i was doing that too. but i realised it was becoming critical and time consuming to manage as it was growing and i thought there should be any better orgnaized way of doing this. that is why these questions were coming in my mind. i did not know actually what to ask.
I should write a design document for every project
I will follow your advice from next time rely thanks for helping me so far..
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Guest LH91325

Rather than worrying about what you call it or how detailed it is, you need some sort of formal agreement between developer and customer about what constitutes "the job" and in sufficient detail that developer and customer can have something to point to when/if there is any dispute. It can be as complicated as a 200 page PDF formal specification or as simple as several bullet points in a shared email. Recognize that you need a design document in some form anyway, or otherwise you don't have a list of things you need to do before you terminate the project and send the final bill, or in a corporate environment that's when you tell your supervisor to move you on to the next project.

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In terms of designing the actual software, I would recommend that you make your design as object-oriented as possible. If your system is managing users, make a user class. Use a database class, like Pear MDB2, for emailing use Pear Mail or Mail Queue. If your system is keeping logs, have a logging class. Any object that your software is managing, like user accounts, locations, posts, whatever, make a class to represent each one. That will go a long way towards making the system easier to build and maintain.

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In terms of designing the actual software, I would recommend that you make your design as object-oriented as possible. If your system is managing users, make a user class. Use a database class, like Pear MDB2, for emailing use Pear Mail or Mail Queue. If your system is keeping logs, have a logging class. Any object that your software is managing, like user accounts, locations, posts, whatever, make a class to represent each one. That will go a long way towards making the system easier to build and maintain.
ye
In terms of designing the actual software, I would recommend that you make your design as object-oriented as possible. If your system is managing users, make a user class. Use a database class, like Pear MDB2, for emailing use Pear Mail or Mail Queue. If your system is keeping logs, have a logging class. Any object that your software is managing, like user accounts, locations, posts, whatever, make a class to represent each one. That will go a long way towards making the system easier to build and maintain.
yes i was doing these in object oriented manner as you stated. thanks for confirming. do you think its relevent to draw UML before for web application? @lh9 thanks for your input
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