Pc cleaner?

[eduard]

What' s a good(?) free pc cleaner?

[Don E]

My personal favorite: http://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER

[boen_robot]

There isn't a good one.They all work through heuristics (which is the technical term for "educated guesses"), as it's impossible to detect for certain if something is used or not (if it was, the OS would do it automatically).Every time you run a cleaner, you're running the risk of damaging your Windows installation. This goes double for "registry cleaner" programs (CCleaner has registry cleaning capabilities, although you could not use them). While most developers are cautious with files, the OS registry is often though of as "safe heaven", and thus, most of the time, any unexpected alterations to it can result in subtle, or not so subtle anomalies.

[eduard]

My personal favorite: http://www.piriform.com/CCLEANER

Thanks!

[eduard]

There isn't a good one. They all work through heuristics (which is the technical term for "educated guesses"), as it's impossible to detect for certain if something is used or not (if it was, the OS would do it automatically). Every time you run a cleaner, you're running the risk of damaging your Windows installation. This goes double for "registry cleaner" programs (CCleaner has registry cleaning capabilities, although you could not use them). While most developers are cautious with files, the OS registry is often though of as "safe heaven", and thus, most of the time, any unexpected alterations to it can result in subtle, or not so subtle anomalies.

Ok, thanks! But what do you suggest to keep a pc in good condition?

[boen_robot]

Windows' built in cleaner, the one at "Programs > Accessories > System Tools > Clean Hard Disk".It looks only into places which are explicitly labelled as being "temporary". Applications are expected (and typically do) use these files only as helpers, so deleting them is not a problem - programs that rely on those files should be able to recreate them when they need them again.Also, from "Control Panel > Add/Remove programs", you should delete any programs you know you don't need. If there are remains in "C:\Program Files" from them, you should probably be able to delete those too, but make sure to only do that after you uninstall the application from the control panel. Programs often leave behind some files in case they're reinstalled, in which case they restore themselves to their former glory.And it should go without saying - avoid installing software you know you don't need. Read carefully the checkboxes that appear on programs you do use. Many include extra software you may not otherwise want.

[eduard]

Windows' built in cleaner, the one at "Programs > Accessories > System Tools > Clean Hard Disk". It looks only into places which are explicitly labelled as being "temporary". Applications are expected (and typically do) use these files only as helpers, so deleting them is not a problem - programs that rely on those files should be able to recreate them when they need them again. Also, from "Control Panel > Add/Remove programs", you should delete any programs you know you don't need. If there are remains in "C:\Program Files" from them, you should probably be able to delete those too, but make sure to only do that after you uninstall the application from the control panel. Programs often leave behind some files in case they're reinstalled, in which case they restore themselves to their former glory. And it should go without saying - avoid installing software you know you don't need. Read carefully the checkboxes that appear on programs you do use. Many include extra software you may not otherwise want.

Thanks very much!

[eduard]

What about defragmentation and split your hard disc into 2 parts?

[boen_robot]

Splitting your HDD in two is a good practice, as long as you make sure to always install applications at C: (or whatever the system partition letter is) and keep all data at D: (or whatever the non-system partition letter is). Doing otherwise is a recipe for disaster.Defragmentation improves HDD performance a bit at the price of wearing your HDD a bit. If you do it once per month or so, you might feel performance improvement and not prematurely wear out your HDD. If you do it too often (like once per day or so), there's a good chance that after a year or two, you'll wear out your HDD, and the performance gain you'd have wouldn't really be noticeable throughout the year.

[ShadowMage]

This whole thread is off-topic in relation to the purpose of this forum, but I'm interested because these pertain to my personal maintenance habits.

Splitting your HDD in two is a good practice, as long as you make sure to always install applications at C: (or whatever the system partition letter is) and keep all data at D: (or whatever the non-system partition letter is). Doing otherwise is a recipe for disaster.

I must ask, what do you mean by "doing otherwise"? I have always left my C: drive as my system drive and only my system drive. In other words, the only thing on that drive is my OS. All applications and data go on my F: drive. Does this fall under "doing otherwise"? If so, why is this a recipe for disaster? I have never had any issues.

Defragmentation improves HDD performance a bit at the price of wearing your HDD a bit. If you do it once per month or so, you might feel performance improvement and not prematurely wear out your HDD. If you do it too often (like once per day or so), there's a good chance that after a year or two, you'll wear out your HDD, and the performance gain you'd have wouldn't really be noticeable throughout the year.

I never knew defragmentation was so hard on HDDs. I guess it makes sense though. Good thing I only do it once a month, if that. Probably more like twice a year. As for the pc cleaner, I certainly recommend CCleaner. We use it at work all the time and I've never had it delete anything it shouldn't. Even the registry cleaner does a really good job. Before making changes to the registry, it asks to back up changes (which I always do, though I've never needed to use one) so even if issues do pop up, you can restore all the changes that CCleaner made to the registry. I also use Windows' built-in cleaning tools as well.

[justsomeguy]

I'll add that defragmentation is both unnecessary and actually harmful if you're using it on a solid-state drive.

[eduard]

This whole thread is off-topic in relation to the purpose of this forum, but I'm interested because these pertain to my personal maintenance habits. I must ask, what do you mean by "doing otherwise"? I have always left my C: drive as my system drive and only my system drive. In other words, the only thing on that drive is my OS. All applications and data go on my F: drive. Does this fall under "doing otherwise"? If so, why is this a recipe for disaster? I have never had any issues. I never knew defragmentation was so hard on HDDs. I guess it makes sense though. Good thing I only do it once a month, if that. Probably more like twice a year. As for the pc cleaner, I certainly recommend CCleaner. We use it at work all the time and I've never had it delete anything it shouldn't. Even the registry cleaner does a really good job. Before making changes to the registry, it asks to back up changes (which I always do, though I've never needed to use one) so even if issues do pop up, you can restore all the changes that CCleaner made to the registry. I also use Windows' built-in cleaning tools as well.

Thanks very much!

[eduard]

Also this question doesn t belong here, but where do I find in Windows 7 to split up my hard disc into 2?

[justsomeguy]

None of these questions really belong here. Search for "partitioning".

[eduard]

None of these questions really belong here. Search for "partitioning".

Thanks! I did! = Locked P. s. But I didn t remember the word " partitioning" However, I understand that s very dificult to help me if I post a question that doesn t belong here! Edited August 21, 2012 by eduardlid

[boen_robot]

I must ask, what do you mean by "doing otherwise"? I have always left my C: drive as my system drive and only my system drive. In other words, the only thing on that drive is my OS. All applications and data go on my F: drive. Does this fall under "doing otherwise"? If so, why is this a recipe for disaster? I have never had any issues.

When you're at your current Windows installation, there's no problem in doing a split like that.If you reinstall Windows however, you'll lose your old registry. Many programs rely on it to keep various information, from file associations, right click menus, to license keys and default settings.Programs that don't use the registry, or let you recreate their former setup by some means are not affected, and as such may be installed on a non-system partition. Such include Apache and PHP for example. PHP doesn't use the registry at all, and Apache only uses it for its service, which you can always reinstall by starting "httpd -k install" (or something similar... I don't remember).The average user doesn't have the patience to verify whether an application uses the registry or not, so the rule of thumb is to keep all programs with the OS partition, so that an OS reinstall would also ensure the re-installation (and re-registration if necessary) of all programs.

As for the pc cleaner, I certainly recommend CCleaner. We use it at work all the time and I've never had it delete anything it shouldn't. Even the registry cleaner does a really good job. Before making changes to the registry, it asks to back up changes (which I always do, though I've never needed to use one) so even if issues do pop up, you can restore all the changes that CCleaner made to the registry. I also use Windows' built-in cleaning tools as well.

But do you inspect the stuff that it says it's going to delete/"fix"? Because most people don't, and end up deleting something they didn't know they shouldn't delete.Even assuming that you too don't inspect your list, the fact that you haven't had such problems only shows that the programs you're using were written with enough care (that, or you're simply not using any program/feature that is damaged).At the computer shop I work, I've had too many instances of problems that were implicitly, or directly caused by a registry cleaner. Anti-Virus and Firewall software are particularly vulnerable to such alterations, as they keep things very tight, without any checks, for the sake of performance.Cases that come to mind:- Often times after a registry clean, Avast Anti-virus leaves the OS hanging right after login, before the display of the desktop, rendering the Windows useless. Sometimes this can be fixed by simply entering Safe Mode and uninstalling avast, but with some combinations between avast versions and registry cleaners, uninstalling Avast becomes impossible, because they've affected the uninstaller as well.- Older versions of NIS (I haven't tried it with more recent ones), after a registry clean (with any registry cleaner at the time, though admittedly, that was before CCleaner) would display nothing as all of its text, including an empty error message that's probably about NIS being unable to find its language file (or probably some ID from which the language is found... I don't know how they've designed it).- I had one case where the user was unable to enter the menu with which he could edit his IP address. The account was administrative, and everything else (e.g. software installations) worked.- Sometimes, the opened Windows at the task bar would disappear. You could still switch between windows with Alt+Tab or the task manager, but wouldn't see them below. Since they're not considered a toolbar, they couldn't be restored from any GUI (and I had no idea where the registry setting is, so like most of these situations, this was fixed with a reinstall).

[eduard]

When you're at your current Windows installation, there's no problem in doing a split like that. If you reinstall Windows however, you'll lose your old registry. Many programs rely on it to keep various information, from file associations, right click menus, to license keys and default settings. Programs that don't use the registry, or let you recreate their former setup by some means are not affected, and as such may be installed on a non-system partition. Such include Apache and PHP for example. PHP doesn't use the registry at all, and Apache only uses it for its service, which you can always reinstall by starting "httpd -k install" (or something similar... I don't remember). The average user doesn't have the patience to verify whether an application uses the registry or not, so the rule of thumb is to keep all programs with the OS partition, so that an OS reinstall would also ensure the re-installation (and re-registration if necessary) of all programs. But do you inspect the stuff that it says it's going to delete/"fix"? Because most people don't, and end up deleting something they didn't know they shouldn't delete. Even assuming that you too don't inspect your list, the fact that you haven't had such problems only shows that the programs you're using were written with enough care (that, or you're simply not using any program/feature that is damaged). At the computer shop I work, I've had too many instances of problems that were implicitly, or directly caused by a registry cleaner. Anti-Virus and Firewall software are particularly vulnerable to such alterations, as they keep things very tight, without any checks, for the sake of performance. Cases that come to mind:- Often times after a registry clean, Avast Anti-virus leaves the OS hanging right after login, before the display of the desktop, rendering the Windows useless. Sometimes this can be fixed by simply entering Safe Mode and uninstalling avast, but with some combinations between avast versions and registry cleaners, uninstalling Avast becomes impossible, because they've affected the uninstaller as well.- Older versions of NIS (I haven't tried it with more recent ones), after a registry clean (with any registry cleaner at the time, though admittedly, that was before CCleaner) would display nothing as all of its text, including an empty error message that's probably about NIS being unable to find its language file (or probably some ID from which the language is found... I don't know how they've designed it).- I had one case where the user was unable to enter the menu with which he could edit his IP address. The account was administrative, and everything else (e.g. software installations) worked.- Sometimes, the opened Windows at the task bar would disappear. You could still switch between windows with Alt+Tab or the task manager, but wouldn't see them below. Since they're not considered a toolbar, they couldn't be restored from any GUI (and I had no idea where the registry setting is, so like most of these situations, this was fixed with a reinstall).

I´ve A. V. Avast! Do you suggest to deinstall it and install CCleaner (inspecting the delete/fix stuff)? Edited August 26, 2012 by eduardlid

[boen_robot]

No. I'd suggest you deinstall Avast and NOT install CCleaner.Wait... did you already install CCleaner and use it? Avast and Windows are still working? Good. Before deinstalling CCleaner, you may want to verify its logs, and restore any non-temporary files that it has decided to delete (assuming there are any). After that, you can deinstall both it and Avast.Of course, leaving your PC without an Anti-Virus is not a good idea, so you'd probably want to get another one. I haven't had any problems with Microsoft Security Essentials, but Avira AntiVir is well too, if you carefully judge what to do based on the "risk" it says (i.e. it occasionally gives false positives, but when it does, the rating is always something lower than "high", though some "low"s are real, so you need to think how much you trust the publisher of whatever it is you're about to run).I haven't studied the impacts of registry manipulations on either of those AntiVirus programs, nor have I yet had a client's PC where they were affected by registry cleans, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're vulnerable in a way I haven't noticed yet for one reason or another.

[ShadowMage]

If you reinstall Windows however, you'll lose your old registry. Many programs rely on it to keep various information, from file associations, right click menus, to license keys and default settings.

Define "reinstall". In my mind, a reinstall is a complete clean installation, which would completely obliterate the registry anyway, right?

But do you inspect the stuff that it says it's going to delete/"fix"?

Yep. That's how I know it isn't deleting anything it shouldn't. It mainly sticks to the temp file directories and internet caches.

At the computer shop I work...

That's right. I forgot you work at a computer shop. I work in IT, but my scope is pretty limited. I work with only what we (IT) set up our users with, where you work with whatever any random user decides to do with their computers. I can imagine you've seen some pretty scary things.

[boen_robot]

Define "reinstall". In my mind, a reinstall is a complete clean installation, which would completely obliterate the registry anyway, right?

That's exactly the kind of reinstall I'm talking about, and it's after that when the problems start. The more "deeply integrated" a program claims to be, the more likely you're to have problems with it at that point.

Yep. That's how I know it isn't deleting anything it shouldn't. It mainly sticks to the temp file directories and internet caches.

My point exactly. We're talking about recommending such programs to users with Eduard's skill level or lower. 'nough said.

That's right. I forgot you work at a computer shop. I work in IT, but my scope is pretty limited. I work with only what we (IT) set up our users with, where you work with whatever any random user decides to do with their computers. I can imagine you've seen some pretty scary things.

Yeah, and the scariest part is when they do something without knowing how they did it, and I have no idea how to undo it either. Said anomalies were so peculiar I can't even recall one, because it's not as simple as saying "X doesn't work", but more like "X works with A, fails with B(, but it once worked with B(, and B is a must, because Y only generates/accepts/supports B now(, although Y used to support A as well)))".

[ShadowMage]

That's exactly the kind of reinstall I'm talking about, and it's after that when the problems start. The more "deeply integrated" a program claims to be, the more likely you're to have problems with it at that point.

Ok, but after reinstalling Windows and obliterating the registry, you would also need to reinstall any software, which would then recreate any registry keys it needs to operate would it not? It'd be just like installing the program for the first time (and is the first time as far as the OS is concerned). I just can't see where any problems would arise from this sort of thing. Unless you're talking about restoring files and settings from a backup utility...? That I could maybe see causing issues, but I never use any sort of backup utility. I always manually grab any data that I need before doing a reinstall.

Yeah, and the scariest part is when they do something without knowing how they did it, and I have no idea how to undo it either. Said anomalies were so peculiar I can't even recall one, because it's not as simple as saying "X doesn't work", but more like "X works with A, fails with B(, but it once worked with B(, and B is a must, because Y only generates/accepts/supports B now(, although Y used to support A as well)))".

Edited August 27, 2012 by ShadowMage

[boen_robot]

Ok, but after reinstalling Windows and obliterating the registry, you would also need to reinstall any software, which would then recreate any registry keys it needs to operate would it not? It'd be just like installing the program for the first time (and is the first time as far as the OS is concerned). I just can't see where any problems would arise from this sort of thing. Unless you're talking about restoring files and settings from a backup utility...? That I could maybe see causing issues, but I never use any sort of backup utility. I always manually grab any data that I need before doing a reinstall.

The data, yes.And as you say, the application needs to be reinstalled after the OS reinstalled.So what would be the point in installing an application at a partition other than the system one if you're going to be reinstalling the application anyway (while having its data safely onto a separate partition)?The only thing you're doing that way is to preserve any extra files from the application, which after the application reinstall would often well make them be ignored. Or in theory (rarely in practice, but still) - not ignored, and causing damage (as in "being unable to run" or "spitting cryptic error messages") to the newly installed program, due to those extra files assuming some registry settings that are not there yet or are different than what is expected.

[ShadowMage]

By data, I'm referring to actual data files created by a user such as Word or Excel documents, text files, AutoCAD DWG files, PHP files, or in my case the save game files from my various games. Not settings or anything else. I can see where settings files and that sort of thing would rely on registry keys but I've never had any problems with data files. Perhaps this is, again, because of my limited scope. Anyway, the theory behind keeping the OS separate is that it will run faster if it doesn't have to search through a bunch of application files as well as its own files. Also, I have two HDDs and the one on which my OS is installed is not very big so I want to limit the amount of stuff stored on it.

[boen_robot]

By data, I'm referring to actual data files created by a user such as Word or Excel documents, text files, AutoCAD DWG files, PHP files, or in my case the save game files from my various games. Not settings or anything else.

That's exactly what I mean whenever I say "data" in this topic, including the part

keep all data at D: (or whatever the non-system partition letter is).

So we're on the same page here : It's perfectly fine (in fact recommended) to keep the data at a non-system partition, since it isn't affected in any way by a Windows reinstall.[edit]Yeah... I forgot to clarify that, as I always do reinstallations that way when there are two or more partitions[/edit] Edited August 30, 2012 by boen_robot

[ShadowMage]

Ok, so data, AFAIK holds absolutely no connection to the registry. So data can be transferred to any installation of Windows or partition of a computer without problems. We're on the same page there. I still don't understand, however, why applications matter. You mention "extra files" or registry keys that applications rely on to recreate their old setups. I'm not sure why this would..................................wait, just had an epiphany. I think we had a little misunderstanding of a Windows reinstall. I think what you were talking about is reinstalling and wiping out only the partition on which the OS resides. This makes sense because that would indeed leave behind applications and "extra files" on the data partition. When I was thinking of reinstalling Windows, I was thinking about wiping out everything including data partitions which would not leave anything behind.Case closed.