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OT: Humans

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Ible, according to the Bible humans were created 6000 years ago. Does 7 days mean literally 7 days? How long was the earth void and with out form before God created us???If 1 day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as 1 day (meaning God is not constrained by time) we have no way of knowing how long the 7 day creation really was.

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how is it that there was an explosion of nothing? Seems to me that belief in the Big Bang takes just as much faith and believing in God
I once got totally put off by science for this. I think it was Steven Hawking who said in one of his books that it doesn't make any sense to question what happened before the Big Bang because that is when time itself was created. So, by definition, nothing could have happened or existed before that/then.I've since come back to science, but I don't look to it for answers to the question "Why?". For that, you need philosophy and religion. And, like you said, faith.

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Exactly, they say don't ask questions about what happened or existed before the big bang, just believe it....hmmmm....not really a scientific answer.

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Whilst in a debate in religion class we got into this. we came across the point "how do you know when to believe? god, give me a sign?". maybe if you believe in it it makes religion real. I dont know... im expecting to come across "the answer" and have a heart attack or something...

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Exactly, they say don't ask questions about what happened or existed before the big bang, just believe it....hmmmm....not really a scientific answer.
Yeah. I saw Brian Greene speak at a local bookstore a few months ago and a member from the audience asked him some question regarding something metaphysical and slightly religious in nature and his response was basically that if science can't answer it, he doesn't want to think about it. If it can't be answered by science (i.e. hypothesized, tested, verified, etc) then it shouldn't be asked by science. This from a guy who acknowleges that his theories, because of the nature of "strings", may never be able to be tested.I once held science in the highest esteem; it provided the end all answers to all my questions, until I starting asking different questions. Now I recognize it for what it is: a decent take on explaining experience. But, like every idea that humans come up with, it's not exactly truth. Because we have to experience the world through the filters of our minds, we can never fully experience (let alone explain) what's going on outside of our minds. So theories, like the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Evolution or (dare I say...) Christianity, may come pretty close to acurately explaining the world around us, but they can really only explain the world as we experience it - not as it actually is.

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im sat on the bench. i dont like the idea that im under the control of a greater being, but there are some things science cant explain. i've given up thinking about philosophy and such like. i'll worry about the afterlife etc when i get there :) live for the moment... /me goes off headbanging to dream on by aerosmith :)

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how is it that there was an explosion of nothing? Seems to me that belief in the Big Bang takes just as much faith and believing in God
Well, the scientists are still working on it, and it remains one of the biggest mysteries. There's a differance in accepting just not knowing and actually believing in something to explain things.
I've since come back to science, but I don't look to it for answers to the question "Why?". For that, you need philosophy and religion. And, like you said, faith.
Personally, I prefer philosophy over religion. When I hear of a child being killed prematurely, and people say "God has a purpose with everything", that's just a cliché that annoys me. "Although we don't always see it, God has a plan." Just settling with that is something I can't do. I don't believe my life on earth has a purpose other than the purpose I give myself, and my destiny is largely as I make it myself (with the surrounding taken into account). You might say "if you can't settle for not knowing, why don't you study the big bang yourself?" Because that's not what I want with my life. I'm perfectly happy not knowing how it happened, and I don't feel the need to believe in something to explain it. In my every day life, it's not important how it happened, so I'd rather study something that interests me more on a personal level.
Exactly, they say don't ask questions about what happened or existed before the big bang, just believe it....hmmmm....not really a scientific answer.
Like I said in the paragraph above, I don't need to know what happened or existed before, I know the Big Bang happened (or at least I have been taught that, and so for every purpose I know). How that happened doesn't affect my decisions in life, and so it doesn't matter.
but they can really only explain the world as we experience it - not as it actually is.
Ah, Plato. Have you read philosophy of Immanuel Kant by any chance.

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I don't believe my life on earth has a purpose other than the purpose I give myself, and my destiny is largely as I make it myself (with the surrounding taken into account).
I would slightly disagree with this statement... reason is that if there are few things destined then there should be equality, why is one person different from another, why is one born poor and another rich with all comforts??I believe in God in a different way, raised in a Hindu religion background, I believe in one God [sanskrit: Advaita]. but God not as a person with higher powers sitting above us and doing stuff. its the energy or power [whatever you wanna call it] inside us. Vedanta is a science which deals with this kind of religion.....

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I once held science in the highest esteem; it provided the end all answers to all my questions, until I starting asking different questions. Now I recognize it for what it is: a decent take on explaining experience.
That's a good way to sum up most of both science and religion. They are both ways of explaining natural phenomena. In the early early days, people didn't know why it rained, or why the earth shook, or why fire shot out of mountains, so they explained all that with supernatural reasons. It was a way of explaining why events happened. Through continued observation, people began to realize that there was a certain cause and effect to different things, there were patterns. There must be a reason why the earth is shaking, something has to cause that. So we looked deeper into it, noticed that there are certain boundaries around the planet that have a very high frequency of earthquakes and volcanic activity, and the theory of plate tectonics was formed. Now when we experience an earthquake, we don't think of it as God shaking the earth or being angry, we think of it as two gigantic plates scraping past each other and causing vibrations on the surface. The same thing goes for objects in the sky, at first they were placed there and moved around supernaturally, and eventually through continued observation and better technology we were able to see a system of cause and effect behind that as well. Our technology is still rapidly advancing, so one day we may see an event occur with new technology that will help to explain what happened right as the Big Bang occured.I mean think about it, humans have been out of the jungle for anywhere between 6,000 and 25,000 years, depending on what you believe. That entire time we have been confined to the surface. Only in the last 100 years have we learned how to fly, and not only that but we are already exploring other planets. We've learned a lot, but we have a lot farther to go in order to be able to explain most of what we observe.The major difference between science and religion is that one relies on observation and testing and the other relies on faith.

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What is not nature? To be created something before that must have been destroyed, etc.. So all of those things are natural, meaning everything is natural. There is no thing such as "non natural". There is no meaning to it. Whoever created that distinction is a fool.EDIT: I live in Cincinnati, Bengals are doing good this year! :)

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The distinction is usually to distinguish between things that have been manufactured by us. Granted we manufacture using materials that occur naturally, but, for example, plastics and styrofoam are things that do not occur naturally (that we know of).

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Personally, I prefer philosophy over religion.
Yeah, I probably should have written "philosophy and/or religion" which is more in line with what I believe.
Ah, Plato. Have you read philosophy of Immanuel Kant by any chance.
Yes, I have. My personal beliefs are an amalgam of ideas presented by science, many philosophers, and various religions. I in no way subscribe to any particular set of beliefs, I try to come up with my own answers. Even in ideas in which I believe very strongly, I recognize inherent flaws.
...The major difference between science and religion is that one relies on observation and testing and the other relies on faith.
I agree pretty much with everything you said. I would only add that science, itself, relies on faith. The laws of physics (i.e. gravity, inertia, conservation of energy), for example, are theories that we've tested and verified over and over and over, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the next time we test them they will behave as expected. Since we can't know for sure if the laws hold up in all situations, we have to have faith that they will. They are, after all, simply models of what we have experienced. We have to have faith that the models apply in all situations.

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I think many hav misconception about religion or God as a shear belief or faith in some supernatural power... When some grt, intelligent ppl found the idea of religion, it was built in such a was to suit different kinds of ppl. There are like different levels [not in any hierarchy], some minds go for belief or faith, but some needed explanation. as far as i know about Hindu philosophy, which supports idol worship to higest level of self-realization....

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The laws of physics (i.e. gravity, inertia, conservation of energy), for example, are theories that we've tested and verified over and over and over, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the next time we test them they will behave as expected. Since we can't know for sure if the laws hold up in all situations, we have to have faith that they will.
That's just it though, those things are laws because they are believed to hold up under all circumstances. The process to become accepted as a "law" requires pretty rigorous examination. So we are under the presumption that what we understand now will explain everything we observe in the future as well. That will probably change, but that's the assumption. Science starts out faith-based, where one person believes that a certain event happens for a certain reason, but in order for it to become accepted it needs to be tested and examined to the point that we don't have any other questions about it.

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How might anyone know that plastic doesn't occur naturally? I may, it may not!

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It may. But the manufacturing and refining process to go from oil to plastic is a pretty specific process, so it's probably pretty likely that it would not occur naturally.

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That's just it though, those things are laws because they are believed to hold up under all circumstances.
I don't want it to appear that I'm antagonizing you, because it seems we are saying the same thing, but doesn't "they are believed to hold up under all circumstances" imply faith?

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I do not see how naturality (new word? :)) can exist. Everything is made from everything else. One way or another it can be made. Just because himans make it does not mean it is any different from anything else.

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I do not see how naturality (new word? :)) can exist. Everything is made from everything else. One way or another it can be made. Just because himans make it does not mean it is any different from anything else.
I don't know, if you go by the definition of the words as they appear in the dictionaries...natural: Produced by nature; not artificial or manmade.artificial: Made by humans; produced rather than natural.

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But you see, just because it is made by humans doesn't give it its own meaning such as that. So there is no difference!.

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I do not see how naturality (new word? :)) can exist. Everything is made from everything else. One way or another it can be made. Just because himans make it does not mean it is any different from anything else.
Yeah, sounds true... everything's already there [exists] and we just bring it out.... :)

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It is true everything we make is made with things from nature but the word means what the dictionary says it means...In that case we can call everything at the grocery store organic since the chemicals and injected proteins can be traced back to "natural" things.

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