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I don't want it to appear that I'm antagonizing you, because it seems we are saying the same thing, but doesn't "they are believed to hold up under all circumstances" imply faith?
Scientific belief comes from seeing evidence of something demonstrated enough times that you are confident that the same thing will occur under other (or all) circumstances. Religious faith is belief in something without needing to see evidence of it.
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Yep! So they are organic. Nothing in the world can truly be defined.
hehe. nice!
Scientific belief comes from seeing evidence of something demonstrated enough times that you are confident that the same thing will occur under other (or all) circumstances. Religious faith is belief in something without needing to see evidence of it.
Absolutely, religious belief cannot be tested nor argued - it is faith based on beliefs that cannot be experimentally verified. However, I hold that scientific belief is still faith - faith that the experimentally verified beliefs will be repeated the next time the experiment runs. Faith, also, that the scientific method is an appropriate means of explaining the phenomenon of the world.
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Yeah, there's a certain amount of faith there. But it's a faith that what you have seen will continue to hold up under scrutiny. Religious faith is a faith in what you cannot see.
I suppose I was nitpicking about this. "Faith", as used in every-day language, has nothing to do with science and everything to do with religion.
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I would slightly disagree with this statement... reason is that if there are few things destined then there should be equality, why is one person different from another, why is one born poor and another rich with all comforts??
You're disagreeing with me believing what I believe? :)One born rich and one born poor has nothing to do with things being destined in the way I'm talking about, as in decided by a higher power. The reason why one person is born rich and one poor is that the one person's parents (grandparents, forefathers, whatever) are rich while the others are poor. It is predecided, and one person is born with options the other may never have, but I still don't think it "destiny", it's what the people have made of themselves based on what they had to begin with. And it is possible to change your stars.When you say a person is destined for great things, you believe a person will be in some way great because of some indication telling you this despite it not lying openly in the cards the person has been dealt. If that makes sense...
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it seems pretty easy for me to answer this question. We've been made on the earth just like any animals. The only reason that we live is because we have Cells, just like animals. We simply have a brain and we can think, that's the only reason why we don't call ourself ''Animals'' even though we are.

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But animals also have brains and think...
Do they think or do they "instinct" (that should so be a verb)? Act on instinct that is. :)
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I'm not angry with you for your beliefs, but I do think it's really narrow-minded, and I could never see it the same way... Before the Big Bang there was nothing, or they don't know what. Still, the world being only 6,000 years old is just ridiculous to me.if the world is only 6,000 years old (or 12,000 as some fundamentalist christians think), why wasn't dinosaurs mentioned in the bible? Why have scientists dug up fossils that show evidence of dinosaurs having existed? Do you not believe in dinosaurs having existed?
u think its narrow minded? hmm.... well, a question was asked. i answered from my perspective and for this same reason i made sure i stated that at the very end. u have ur beliefs- but i will never ever say that u are narrow minded- its ur belief. respect! why wasnt dinasaurs mentioned? ha. was hippopotamus, jaguar, parrot, etc. mentioned? its impossible for the Bible to mention every single thing word for word. The Bible is only concerned with things thats important to our salvation. if u read what i wrote again- u would see that i explained b4 u even mentioned it why scientists can dig things up and think that they are far older than they really are- they were created in an adult stage.i've read much about evolution. i did a degree in behavioral science/ psychology and had to do plenty research for various courses on that stuff. did plenty personal research on various religions as well- christianity, islam, hindu, rastafarianism, etc. so, its not like i am in a box.
I don't think it is narrow-minded to belive in God, but I do think it is narrow minded to think the earth is only 6000 years old. How do you explain dinosaurs then???
hhmm... u too. i'll just smile. u may wanna read this dinasaur and the Bible 1, dinasaur and the Bible 2, u can also read this book- Dinosaurs by Elaine G. Kennedy, Ph. D.scientists are guessing as to what happened to dinasaurs. they say: "Dinosaurs starved to death; they died from overeating; they were poisoned; they became blind from cataracts and could not reproduce; mammals ate their eggs. Other causes include-volcanic dust, poisonous gases, comets, sunspots, meteorites, mass suicide, constipation, parasites, shrinking brain (and greater stupidity), slipped discs, changes in the composition of air, etc." (read) Well, i dont have to guess. they became extinct during the flood. they were too big to into the ark.
how is it that there was an explosion of nothing? Seems to me that belief in the Big Bang takes just as much faith and believing in God
very true.
You have to realize that all of that is essentially your opinion.
right- and i keep saying that 'this is my perspective'. i'll say no more on that.
I realize these are your personal beliefs, and that you do believe them, but I think it's a little naive when science is able, through observation and testing, to determine the age of something with a high level of precision.
and i explianed that before. when God created everything in that week, they were created maturely.
you can sit there with your fingers in your ears saying "la la la la la I can't hear you!"
lol. la la la la la... hahahahahhaaaaa. naahhhhh--- i'm listening to allllll you have to say. lol.
I do have a question though about your logic. You claim that the planet is 6,000 years old. Where does God draw the line? Does this only include the planet itself, or the entire solar system including the sun, or the entire galaxy including all the stars we see, or the entire universe? Because there are many many things that we can see in the universe that are so far that it takes the light from those objects millions of years to reach us. So if everything is only 6,000 years old, then we would only be able to see objects that are 6,000 light years away or less. But we can see things that are millions of light years distant, so that light has been travelling through space for several million years to reach us. How do you reconcile things like that with what you believe?
u are limiting my beliefs with mere speculations from the little i've said. i do believe that there are other worlds out there- its in the Bible: Hebrews 1:2 says "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" and Hebrews 11:3 which say, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." so yeah- they are other "worlds".
Ible, according to the Bible humans were created 6000 years ago. Does 7 days mean literally 7 days? How long was the earth void and with out form before God created us???
yup my dear. 7 literal days.read. how long was the earth void... i dont know. no one knows.
I once got totally put off by science for this. I think it was Steven Hawking who said in one of his books that it doesn't make any sense to question what happened before the Big Bang because that is when time itself was created. So, by definition, nothing could have happened or existed before that/then.
hahahaaaaa... so- that theory is empty. think it over. how could we have just evolved from no where? hhmmm...... there must be an explanation my friend- creation!
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Exactly, they say don't ask questions about what happened or existed before the big bang, just believe it....hmmmm....not really a scientific answer.
looks like evolution is falling back on the Christians hope- "faith"
i dont like the idea that im under the control of a greater being... i'll worry about the afterlife etc when i get there :) live for the moment...
well, take out God out of this for a moment. at some moments in our lives we will be under the control of someone greater than ourselves-> our parents, teachers, boss, etc. The greatest leader was a great follower. you'll worry about the after life when u get there? i see. well, what u do now in this life will shape ur destiny.
I don't believe my life on earth has a purpose other than the purpose I give myself, and my destiny is largely as I make it myself
of course u have a purpose in life. i wont get into the nitty gritty purpose of ur life- that i dont know. but the larger picture is that (and you'll all scream at me again when i say it- i love when u scream anyway- lol). in the bigger picture- we'll either fulfil God plans or Satan's plans. and that is very true- ur destination takes u only where u have lead urself.
Whoever created that distinction is a fool.
it wasnt me? :) but call no one a fool.========================well, despite our differences- i'm glad i can still come back next week and ask a question on css--> which i will. :) with help from al of you.
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That you can do. Make us agree with your point of view is something you can never do (not with me atleast), but I suppose that goes both ways...

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Well, i dont have to guess. they became extinct during the flood. they were too big to into the ark.
:) That's the first time I've ever heard anyone say/type that.
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That you can do. Make us agree with your point of view is something you can never do (not with me atleast), but I suppose that goes both ways...
well, thats the thing- i am not trying to convert anyone!!! (i've never even mentioned which denomination i belong to- and i probably wont). for me, its just a discussion. we are all different in many ways which is attributed to many things. but if anyone sees the light in which i am coming from along the way- wonderful! if not- oh well- i wont scream, i'll just smile, which i do a lot of (smile :) and laugh :) )
:) That's the first time I've ever heard anyone said/type that.
look it up sometime when u have time.=======================anyway- i got wedding invitations to do for someone, so i'm outta here for now...
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But animals also have brains and think...they have brains and response
Animals are definately more then instinct, they are very capable of learning. I'll give three examples. First, chimpanzees in the wild have been observed to use tools to get food. They like to eat ants, but the ants go into their holes. So the chimps realized that they could take a stick, scrape everything off it, and stick it down the hole and bring out the ants to lick off the stick. Very few animals have been seen to use tools from the environment to help them accomplish a task, but some of them do.Another example is crows. I read a National Geographic article about them several years ago describing how smart they are. In a snowy town in winter, they were seen to fly up onto a streetlight during the day, use their wings to cover up the light sensor so that the streetlight turns on, and then they warm up from the heat of the light. They were also seen to fly around with hard nuts in their mouth, find a moving car, and drop the nuts in front of the car to break the shells. That's more then instinct, cars and streetlights are pretty recent.Another example is elephants, which you may have heard about recently. Elephants joined the club of being able to recognize themselves, where if you show them a mirror, they realize that they are looking at themselves instead of another animal. Dolphins also exhibit that behavior. The test is by painting an X on the animal's forehead where they can't see it, then show them a mirror, and if the animal touches the X on its own head then it realizes it is looking at itself. Another elephant was moving her ears around so that she could see the underside of them.So, anyway, animals are definately more then instinct (look at us).
u are limiting my beliefs with mere speculations from the little i've said. i do believe that there are other worlds out there- its in the Bible: Hebrews 1:2 says "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" and Hebrews 11:3 which say, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." so yeah- they are other "worlds".
You're dodging my question. Is the universe only 6,000 years old, or only the earth?Now, about the constipated dinosaurs. I think that religious theories concerning dinosaurs are pretty rediculous.
why scientists can dig things up and think that they are far older than they really are- they were created in an adult stage.
I'm sorry, but that is not a valid explanation for digging up a fossil that you believe is 6,000 years old, and using our best testing methods to determine it's age at around 200 million years. That's a margin of error of over 33,000%. It would be rediculous to think that for some things, where we know their age, the dating methods come back with a very small margin of error, but for the "magic" bones out there that were apparently created 6,000 years ago, for whatever reason they come out between 65 million and 250 million years old. There is zero proof that any dinosaur was alive for the past 1 million years, they are much older then that. Their extinction happened around 65 million years ago. It's a copout to just say "well that's how they were created", because that explanation does not require any bit of proof or evidence, and even goes against the evidence we have with no explanation of our seemingly enormous margin of error. Our methods are accurate for determining things 200-5,000 years old, so why would they suddenly fail for older things? It doesn't make sense. If you tested over 30 indivual T-Rex specimens, and they all came out to around 65 million years old, wouldn't it make sense that there was an animal that fit that description that lived 65 million years ago?Also, about this "created in an adult stage".. how does that explain the eggs we find with dinosaur fetuses still inside? What is that, an adult fetus?About the ark and about mentioning dinosaurs in the bible. Unless I'm mistaken, the bible says that Noah got 2 of every creature on the earth on his ark, but it doesn't even mention that, oh yeah, there were these few thousand species of reptiles larger then men that were more trouble then they were worth. Weren't the dinosaurs God's creatures? Didn't they deserve to be saved? I might also point out that never in human history has it ever been recorded that any human has had an encounter with a dinosaur. If dinosaurs died in the flood 2,000 years after the earth was created, then humans and dinosaurs would have co-existed for 2,000 years. So where is the evidence of it? We have early tools made from all kinds of animal bones, so where are the T-Rex knives? Where are the records about "we killed 3 deer, saw a tiger, and oh yeah, there was a 40 foot long, 8 ton lizard too". There are cave paintings showing people hunting and living with deer, buffalo, birds, snakes, fish, each other, but no dinosaurs. If you saw something that big, wouldn't you want to tell people about it? Humans and dinosaurs never co-existed. Dinosaurs lived tens to hundreds of millions of years ago, and humans have only been around for the past 3 million years at the very, very most. Modern humans have only been around for about 25,000 years.Now, about this ark. Here is a translated description of the ark from Genesis:
So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
The measurements have been translated from cubits. So what we have is a 450 foot long boat, 75 feet wide and 45 feet tall with three decks, apparenty 15 feet high each with a roof. That makes for a total volume of about 1.5 million cubic feet.And then we have this:
You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.
Notwithstanding the fact that dinosaurs are apparently included in the description of "every kind of creature that moves along the ground", are you aware of the volume required for 2 of every species of animal on the planet? It cannot fit into 1.5 million cubic feet, in fact it can't even fit into 15 million cubic feet, even though the animal brawls that would break out would probably whittle down the volume a little bit.So I'm wondering how anyone could take this literally and believe that this is exactly what happened. How could every species of life fit into 1.5 million cubic feet? Since evolution is nonsense, that also includes the related species who only scientists can tell apart. And what about dinosaurs? If they died in the flood, then Noah directly contradicted an order to save them. The bible doesn't say "well, except for those really big reptiles, you can just let them all die from constipation". What about the dinosaurs like ichthyosaurus that lived in the water? A flood killed them too?Now I'm not trying to bash anyone's beliefs, I'm just wondering how anyone could take the bible literally. I want to know how someone can reconcile the fact (yes, fact) that dinosaurs walked and ruled this planet 200 million years ago with the belief that the earth is 6,000 years old, considering evidence to the contrary like this:http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/geo_time_scale.htmlHow can everything we know be so wrong? How can we test things with great accuracy from one time period, and from another time period be 33,000% off? It doesn't make sense. And "that's the mystery" is not an acceptable answer.
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Hehe, Bill Hicks gives an argument on that in the video Revelations. He says he's been talking with a fundamentalist christian who believes the world is 12,000 years old. Then he asks him a one-word question: Dinosaur?

Twelve thousand years old. But I actually asked this guy, "OK, dinosaur fossils-- how does that fit into your scheme of life? What's the deal?" He goes:"God put those here to test our faith.""I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. I think I've figured this out."Does that-- That's what this guy said. Does that bother anyone here? The idea that God might be ****ing with our heads? Anyone have trouble sleeping restfully with that thought in their head? God's running around burying fossils: "Ho ho! We'll see who believes in me now, ha ha! I'm a prankster God. I am killing me, ho ho ho!"
And indeed, it seems weird that God would mess with our heads. Would God (if he exists) deceive us like that?
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Notwithstanding the fact that dinosaurs are apparently included in the description of "every kind of creature that moves along the ground", are you aware of the volume required for 2 of every species of animal on the planet? It cannot fit into 1.5 million cubic feet, in fact it can't even fit into 15 million cubic feet, even though the animal brawls that would break out would probably whittle down the volume a little bit.
You didn't even go into the fact that the carnivores would have eaten some of the animals. So Noah would have had to include fodder for them. And the herbivores would have had to eat plants, but I don't remember there being any mention of bringing two of every species of plant... Speaking of that, where did all the plants come from if they weren't included on the ark?
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Well, plant seeds can handle some water you know... :)Good point about the necessary food though. Carnivores would definitely go after herbivores if there wasn't already enough food for them. And they would need food for God knows how many animals, for 40 days and 40 nights (right?).In fact if the stories of Adam and Eve or the story of Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives are true, we are all the result of inbreed. Isn't that a sin as well? So you can't take the Bible literally.

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Well, plant seeds can handle some water you know... :)
Haha, sure. Some seeds, I learned in a recent trip to Hawaii, can get stuck along with tiny snails to the feet of sea birds and travel thousands of miles across the ocean to populate volcanic lands previous devoid of life. Other seeds can float for thousands of miles. So, yeah, I guess the Great Flood wouldn't have affected the plants too badly.That still leaves the herbivores hungry. Not to mention Noah and his family. And what about drinking water. Can you imagine how much space drinking water for all those animals would take on that ship? Or are we assuming that the ocean's salt water wouldn't have mingled in with the rains?(Can you tell I'm from a logistics background?)
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Well, the amount of rain (we're talking 40 days of continuous raining, right?) would probably lower the percentage of salt to a tiny decimal or something.

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And indeed, it seems weird that God would mess with our heads. Would God (if he exists) deceive us like that?
I don't know about you guys, but if I was an omnipotent, all-powerful ruler of life, I would regularly appear before my subjects and speak to them directly to let them know what I want them to do. I would make sure that everyone believed in me, there wouldn't even be a question. Faith would not be necessary, just listen to me! A parent raising a kid doesn't watch the kid beat someone's ######, then wait until the kid comes to talk to them to figure out if they did something wrong. You go stop your kid, tell him what he did wrong, why it's wrong, and tell him what to do in the future. That's how you teach people, you don't send them off with a book for the next several thousand years and say "now don't screw up!" Believe me, my parents left me home alone several times (and only for days!), that sort of thing doesn't work!If you are the type of parent to give your kid a few rules and then let them go do whatever they want, then you're not being a very good parent.
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