Opera vs. Microsoft

[boen_robot]

VMWare will run on 500 Mhz and 128Mb of RAM. http://www.vmware.com/support/ws45/doc/intro_hostreq_ws.html

Yeah, but how. We're talking about people that need to do business and if you use a computer having only the minimum requirements, using any application on the VM will be a pain, if at all possible.... and yes, I see the paradox too... if they really wanted, they should've been able to buy better PCs for the sake of the business. But nooo... all they need are "typewriters with memory" they all say. Blah!!! I can't do anything for bastards like those.

[aspnetguy]

customers like that bring up the rear of my priority list. Why would I want to work hard for someone who is going to whine about every penny they have to spend to keep their business running. It is people like that who don't realize that if they just spent $1 they would save $5 or even more every month for the rest of their life!!!! People don't know how to factor in the value of their time and effort when calculating costs.

[justsomeguy]

But nooo... all they need are "typewriters with memory" they all say.

Sounds like a place for some thin clients and a terminal server, then they can all run the latest software and not have to spend a lot on hardware.

[aspnetguy]

My guess would be that theya ) don't have enough work stations to make the initial cost justifableb ) would look at the up front cost of buying a decent server, network cabling/router costs, and Windows Server licenses and would be scared away. Future savings is a hard line to sell with small businesses, at least where I am from.

[justsomeguy]

would look at the up front cost of buying a decent server, network cabling/router costs, and Windows Server licenses and would be scared away. Future savings is a hard line to sell with small businesses, at least where I am from.

No kidding. People would rather pay $1000 per workstation every 2 years then pay $3000 every 8 years for a server to run all the hundred dollar clients. A lot of business are all about the short term. Contrast that with something like the guys who make Scotch whiskey, you make a batch today that you know is going to sit around for the next 18 years before you can sell it, now that's a long-term plan. I bet all the distilleries have awesome networks.The place where I work at has a mail server that is an old HP desktop machine from probably 8 years ago that we cannibalized and turned into a mail server. I'm not even joking when I say it takes between 10-15 minutes between the time you press power until you see the desktop. I hit power, went and got a glass of water, went outside and smoked, came back in and talked with someone, went back into the server room and it was still booting. Granted, most mail servers need hardly any power (we have no delay in our emails), but that's just one example. The only reason that thing would be replaced is if it refused to boot.

[aspnetguy]

No kidding. People would rather pay $1000 per workstation every 2 years then pay $3000 every 8 years for a server to run all the hundred dollar clients. A lot of business are all about the short term. Contrast that with something like the guys who make Scotch whiskey, you make a batch today that you know is going to sit around for the next 18 years before you can sell it, now that's a long-term plan. I bet all the distilleries have awesome networks.

I think "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" was inspired by people like that!

The place where I work at has a mail server that is an old HP desktop machine from probably 8 years ago that we cannibalized and turned into a mail server. I'm not even joking when I say it takes between 10-15 minutes between the time you press power until you see the desktop. I hit power, went and got a glass of water, went outside and smoked, came back in and talked with someone, went back into the server room and it was still booting. Granted, most mail servers need hardly any power (we have no delay in our emails), but that's just one example. The only reason that thing would be replaced is if it refused to boot.

True, but someday thay thing is going to die and leave you without email until you either replace the fossilized parts or get a new server up and running . I am sure you could easily integrate your email into another server since it has such low traffic.I am currently running some of my sites off a Duron 1800+ (Socket A ) so I guess I am in the same boat

[dcole.ath.cx]

Also I highly doubt Silverlight stands a chance of replacing web applications. If Flash didn't why would we expect Silverlight to.

This doesn't account for Silverlight taking over web apps, but Flash...Well if Flash had an "accident" and "magically" didn't work in the next version of IE or any following version of IE, then Silverlight would have to take over Flash's place. Note: Microsoft would not block flash because that would be illegal... it would just happen "magically" or through an act of God. To add to this, new comers to web development often go through a stage of loving Flash and Microsoft could tap into this and create a generation of Silverlight users.A more likely case however would be added security to protect against "Flash viruses"... but the security would be so annoying Silverlight would have to be used in exchange.

[justsomeguy]

True, but someday thay thing is going to die and leave you without email until you either replace the fossilized parts or get a new server up and running . I am sure you could easily integrate your email into another server since it has such low traffic.

The funny thing is that we have a new Exchange server sitting there doing next to nothing.

A more likely case however would be added security to protect against "Flash viruses"... but the security would be so annoying Silverlight would have to be used in exchange.

If Microsoft tries to shut out Flash they will get sued very quickly. That's not legal anywhere. They will have to compete directly with Flash, the major thing Microsoft has going for them is their existing developer base. If they push Silverlight the same way they pushed VB then everyone who develops using Microsoft technologies will use Silverlight instead of Flash.

[aspnetguy]

This doesn't account for Silverlight taking over web apps, but Flash...Well if Flash had an "accident" and "magically" didn't work in the next version of IE or any following version of IE, then Silverlight would have to take over Flash's place. Note: Microsoft would not block flash because that would be illegal... it would just happen "magically" or through an act of God. To add to this, new comers to web development often go through a stage of loving Flash and Microsoft could tap into this and create a generation of Silverlight users.A more likely case however would be added security to protect against "Flash viruses"... but the security would be so annoying Silverlight would have to be used in exchange.

Even if Flash didn't exist Silverlight would not take over Web Apps mostly because 1) it is still just a plugin with all the inheritited issues that go along with that 2) it is from MS 3) You need to be to a ASP.Net/C#/WFP programmer to use Silverlight (and have Visual Studio and/or Expression Studio) which I would bet a lot of money on PHP, C, RoR, and all the other types of programmers would not switch to .Net.Also MS is not going to disable or limit Flash in anyway. Any "magic" or other claims they made would be so obvious and they would be up to their ears in lawsuits.

[boen_robot]

customers like that bring up the rear of my priority list. Why would I want to work hard for someone who is going to whine about every penny they have to spend to keep their business running. It is people like that who don't realize that if they just spent $1 they would save $5 or even more every month for the rest of their life!!!! People don't know how to factor in the value of their time and effort when calculating costs.

Actually such clients are a quite interesting types of people. They are not really as skinflint as their hardware goes.If their computer needs repairs, whether it's data recovery of their precious data, OS reinstallation, addition of some extra software/plug-in, replacement of a VGA/HDD/LAN card, etc.... they'll pay it all, as long as it's worth less than the whole computer combined. In the case of data recovery, they may even pay more. And that for each repair... all despite everyone (me included) trying to tell them a more expensive PC is going to go a far longer way than their old crate.In all cases though, people that still suffer from this are people that are tied to Windows 98's unique features AND don't want to buy a new PC at the price of about $210-$245 (we're talking something like 512MB DDR2, on board VGA, LAN, Socket 775, HHD SATA 80-160GB, Intel Celeron 1.6-2.0GHz, 350W power supply) and use VPC for the sake of supporting the old. Where I live though, prices between $14-$60 are a decent price for the work of an IT specialist (or whatever you call a person that deals with PC problems) so while such people go far below people with new PCs, they still rank higher than true skinflints and people with unrepairable PCs (that we accept only because there's "some" hope left). The latter often happens here because of the electricity provider often makes repairs on their cables that cause electroshocks, rendering a vast array of appliances useless, PCs being the most affected, but that's a whole other topic here.If they were smarter, they were going to not only take all of that into account, but also consider the security issues Windows 98 has with regard to internet security. I always tell them "Any computer with Windows 98 and internet connection is a computer crying for reinstallation" and even after that, they still persist, until one day their data is barely saved at high costs, at which point I just say "I warned you, didn't I?". The day after you see the internet connection off, but Windows 98 still on, and the old computer still there.... ahhh!!! At moments like this I just want to grab such crates and throw them off on the road, where hopefully a car would stump them, rendering them even more useless. I'm actually so sick of Windows 98 theese days that I've left my father (who is also my "boss") to deal with such old stuff. He's actually sick of it too, but is more pacient, since all paychecks go to him after all.

[justsomeguy]

Here's another update:

A Microsoft Web evangelist hinted yesterday that news of Internet Explorer 8's development progress was disclosed months earlier than planned because Web developers recently stepped up criticism of the company's support for standards.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/articl...ticleId=9053821

[aspnetguy]

That has always been soething that bugged me...they hardly ever release information on what they are doing and what they plan to deliver in each release. If they would just release details on a semi-regular bases there wouldn't be all speculation going around and developers wouldn't be constantly repeating what they hope to see...

[justsomeguy]

<nelson>HA HA!</nelson>http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080...rust-probe.html

Opera wants the EC to force Microsoft to begin offering versions of Windows without IE installed and to make the browser more standards-compliant. Opera will get what it asked for, and more

[aspnetguy]

With the new investigation, the EU is essentially saying that every bit of software bundled with Windows is now fair game for antitrust scrutiny.

I think this is going way too far. I doubt MS will comply with removing IE from Windows. It is so integrated and used by the many other features (Windows Explorer). It would take a large rewrite of some of Windows fundamental programs.As much as I am frustrated with MS I hate the EC just as equally. Personally I would not want to ever do business in Europe. With stupid regulations and just plain stupidity it would be a nightmare to deal with all the needless legal stuff. I found it hard to believe that the EC fined Amazon a while back and forced them to stop offering free shipping to buyers in France because it somehow violated some stupid law that protects small bookstores, which at the same time just keeps prices higher needlessly.So just one question if MS does remove IE from Windows then how do you download and install your browser of choice if you have no way to get on the internet?

[Ingolme]

So just one question if MS does remove IE from Windows then how do you download and install your browser of choice if you have no way to get on the internet?

That question was on my mind while reading the article.Personally, all I'd like is for Internet Explorer to become completely standard compliant.

[aspnetguy]

Personally, all I'd like is for Internet Explorer to become completely standard compliant.

I think that if IE was just as compliant as Firefox or Opera nobody would have paided attention to the complaint from Opera. IE8 looks like it will be a big step forward so I think the standards complaint is too little too late.

[justsomeguy]

It is so integrated and used by the many other features (Windows Explorer). It would take a large rewrite of some of Windows fundamental programs.

Yeah it would, and that's exactly what Microsoft tried to argue. They say they can't remove it because it's an essential piece of software. Well, it's not. The only reason it is, is because they decided to make it that way so that you couldn't remove the browser from the OS. A browser is not an essential piece of an operating system. Any application is not an essential piece of an OS. Go to kernel.org for examples of an OS without any applications at all. Any Windows application or service that depends on IE should be rewritten. Microsoft should have done that a while ago. It never should have been integrated to begin with, that's a major reason why Windows machines are prone to malware. Microsoft has taken steps with Vista to finally start to de-couple IE from the OS. Their reason is because it's more secure that way, so they are saying it's a "feature" now. So we start with Windows without a browser. Then Microsoft develops IE and integrates it into Windows and says that's a feature. Then many years go by and Windows becomes the single largest target for malware. By a lot. Then Microsoft starts to decouple the browser from the OS. Soon we'll come full circle and get back to standalone Windows and standalone IE, which is the way it started and the way it should have always been.

As much as I am frustrated with MS I hate the EC just as equally.

Yeah, that's a whole nother point. But right now I'm in MS-rant mode. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

So just one question if MS does remove IE from Windows then how do you download and install your browser of choice if you have no way to get on the internet?

Who says you need a web browser to use the internet? Have you ever installed Firefox on a new Linux install? Microsoft has gotten people to the point that they think that if there's no little blue E on their desktop, they can't do anything online. That's not the case, that's specifically what Microsoft would like you to think though.There are a lot of parts to this investigation, but if the EC started coming down on Microsoft until Office and IE followed standards and nonessential things were not installed by default it would mean one thing: more competition, and more competition will result in better products. The only sticking point is what is considered for removal. It wouldn't make sense to lobby to get Microsoft to remove Notepad or Calculator because there isn't a giant industry around text editors and software calculators like there is with office suites and web browsers. But the times need to come to an end when the only reason people are using deficient Microsoft software is because it came with their OS, for a competitor with a superior product that is very frustrating. Microsoft needs to be forced to compete on an equal playing field with everyone else, they shouldn't have an advantage in the office suite or web browser markets because they happen to make an OS. If their browser isn't the best browser around, it shouldn't be the dominant one. But it is dominant, and it's the worst around. That's the whole issue, that's not fair.

I think that if IE was just as compliant as Firefox or Opera nobody would have paided attention to the complaint from Opera.

If IE was compliant there wouldn't have been a complaint in the first place.

IE8 looks like it will be a big step forward so I think the standards complaint is too little too late.

Heck yeah it's late, but just think about it. The entire reason Microsoft started up with IE after so long was because of the threat from Firefox. They needed to address that directly. They responded to competition. The result (IE7) isn't very great, in fact it sort of sucks. IE7 doesn't compete. IE8 is looking better, and IE8 will be the first real result of IE needing to compete with a superior product. If this investigation results in action against Microsoft it will force them to always compete, they won't have the luxury of sitting there for 4 years while their deficient product just gains more market share. If Microsoft has to compete it is going to benefit web developers a lot. Late or not, this needs to happen.

[aspnetguy]

I realize you can use the internet without a browser, I haven't done much with linux but I have installed mysql through apt-get and PEAR packages but the average user won' know how to, or want, to do that. PC sellers are just going to pre-install browsers anyway, but yes IE shouldn't be integrated into the OS I agree.

[justsomeguy]

Yeah, I haven't installed Firefox on a fresh install of Linux either. In fact, I haven't installed a fresh install of Linux. But the technology is there, if the OS has a network connection and knows where to look it can browse for install packages. Linux as a community does a terrible job of making things usable, but I'm sure Microsoft can develop an intuitive way to get that done. Microsoft does do a very good job of making computers usable. Linux is good for showing what's possible, but it generally takes a Windows version to make it usable and popular. I'm not scared of a browser-less computer though, that will just mean that when I install a new copy of Windows, instead of firing up IE and downloading Opera I'll just fire up the web package installer to do the same thing.