rainwater Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 First of all, thank you for validating me, so I can post to the forum. I just love the tutorials on this website. I am a great grammy that graduated college in 2000 with a Computer Science Associates Degree. Now I know you are thinking, "Wow, slow and stupid." Well, I am a little slow and a perfectionist, and have been called stupid a lot too; however, I graduated with a 3.97 average. Probably that was because I loved the areas of learning.To the question. I have built a few websites, and have built my own business site, but am not up to date with the new code. I have many books on HTML 4, but now see some of that code is depreciated. Should I use those books for reference with the depreciated tags in mind?I have: Sams Teach Yourself HTML 4 in 21 Days Professional Edition, Second Edition, Copyright 2000, and a few other books with a 2000 copyright. I was going to divulge myself into CSS, but after reading your website, I thought it best to go through the HTML tutorial first, and am glad I did. There is a lot in there different than I have been doing. I am surprised my website even works!!!!!More questions after this.Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProblemHelpPlease Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 The main problem when using older code and depriciated tags is your website not working and/or being displayed correctly on different browsers. Learning from books is an excellent way of getting the basics but the only real way to learn is to start coding websites and learning from mistakes.The biggest change between the code you will have learnt from books and the most recent code is probably css. I would recommend learning css (the W3Schools site is a good start) as this will rapidly start showing you ways to update your code and help you move away from depericiated tags.The other main thing I would recommend is using an uptodate reference for the code you will be using. The references on W3Schools are a good place to start as they will show you which tags you might be using that have since been superceded by css and what is likely to work on different browsers.Welcome to the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Copyright 2000 is pretty old, especially if it's a second edition. Here are some things to look for in a book that might suggest things are not well. I don't mean that these things are the only things to watch out for, or even the most important. They are just symptoms of a much larger problem you want to avoid:Failure to use a doctype definition (DTD) at the top of the document. I would even hesitate if they show a transitional doctype.Capital letters in element tags, like <BODY>. This was once considered useful, but is now the a sign of someone who has not kept up with the times.Extensive use of JavaScript in element tags, as in <image src="some.gif" onmouseover="somefunc()" onmouseout="otherfunc()">. Now and then a book or tutorial might show this because it makes the lesson more compact, but if they do it all the time . . .Use of deprecated tags like <FONT>Use of presentational attributes where they don't belong, as in <body bgcolor="#ffffff">. A big exception to this rule is tables, which still correctly support a lot of attributes in tags for associated elements, like <table>, <tr> and <td>Extensive use of tables as a framework for laying out page designs. Tables should hold tabular data.You ought to be able to detect these signs just by flipping through a book in a few seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 OK, thank you for all the good information.Q. I was taught to use tables (put each page into tabels inside a table) so the contents of a page are placed so they will not go all over a monitor when viewed in different browsers. Is this not still the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingolme Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Tables are not meant to be used to lay out pages. You should use CSS and the proper elements. Nested tables are specially slow when being rendered by the browser, and when you want to change the layout, you have to modify the code of every single page in your site rather than editing a single styesheet that's common between all the pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMage Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Take it from me, tables are a VERY bad idea for laying out a page. We have some pretty old reports and stuff on the intranet here where I work. They're laid out using tables, and boy are they a nightmare to work on. I've already rewritten a few of them because they were not only hard to modify but hard to understand.I now use a lot of div tags. I find them MUCH easier to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23.12.2012 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 I would recommend you get a very well written text about, and also compile a list of web (or free) reference resources. For example, get yourself a book such as O'Oreilly's Head First HTML with XHTML and CSS or the more recent Sams Teach Yourself HTML and CSS in 24 Hours. The former is part of the series which has helped me dive into PHP and JavaScript, and it did a pretty good job for me. The latter is more recently written, and seems to cover XHTML 1.1 and CSS 2.1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 3, 2010 Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 I will take a look at getting those books you suggested. ThanksAs for the tables, thanks to all of you for responding to that. I am glad you did, because I have a hard time letting things go, and I really like working with tables. If only one person had responded to the table thing, then I probably would not have paid so much attention to it.I was reading in the Introductory forum where people are having a hard time getting the CSS right. Even people that have learned the new HTML have problems with it.My first question: Is there some parts of CSS I should pay special attention to learning so to get it right? Second question: Is there some way I can put a DTD onto my current out of date website? If so, please let me know how to code it. I don't even have one on the site. I saw it on the HTML Advanced tutorial. While on that page, I did the validation for my site, and oh my goodness....I am surprised my site even works! I know it will take me some time to get through all the tutorials and then make a new website. It takes my brain a little while to absorb things. Not because I am old, but that is the way I have always been. I have three grandchildren that are just like me...poor things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMage Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Is there some parts of CSS I should pay special attention to learning so to get it right?Personally, I don't think there's any one part you should pay more attention to. Learn what you can from the tutorials and learn the rest by experimenting. If you have problems, you can always come back here. This forum has been a huge help to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Block-level elements, like headings, paragraphs, and divs, should be the framework of your design. Their natural tendency is to stack vertically. To align them horizontally, you will need to give them width attributes and a float property. When you wish to begin a new "level," the next item should have a clear:both property.Do not use the <br> element if your only purpose is to begin a new level. It is designed to break up text, nothing more. Any other usage may create side-effects you don't fully understand (like mysterious whitespace). They can be eliminated with additional CSS, but it's easier to avoid the problem altogether.Block-level elements, float, and clear are essential to any sophisticated design. Authors who do not understand them usually resort to absolute positioning, which is usually (not always) a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMage Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Ah yes, float, how could I forget float? Float can be incredibly tricky to get working, but if you do it right it is very useful in creating easy-to-understand, easily-modified designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 3, 2010 Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 OK, those things will be added into my folder. I do think they are ahead of me, but knowing it in advance is always good, and I will be more apt to pay attention to those thing. I haven't started on the CSS yet, and if I catch your drift correctly, Block Level Elements are kind of like having a table...like putting things in seperate cells one below each other each having a new level... Now I don't understand the clear:both property, and float, but that understanding should come when I do the tutorials. Headings, paragraphs, divs, float and clear....got it.I do want to have a sophisticated design, so will work hard at getting it right. While I was in school, I had a super opportunity to be working with a call-in company that had many very smart young people who understood everything with all kinds of code. I was able to pick their brains and made them work their brains to help me figure out some of my school stuff that even the teacher did not know how to do. Now it is your turn. I still have this question. Is there some way I can put a DTD onto my current out of date website? If so, please let me know how to code it. I don't even have one on the site. I would like to give you the address for the site, but do not want to indirectly seem like it was advertising. Any suggestions on how to have you look at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Look here: http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 This might get you started on a basic design laid out with CSS: http://www.sophox.com/wordpress/?p=177 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProblemHelpPlease Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 The other major thing I would recommend when learning css for the first time and especially when writing your first css code is to fully understand the box model. Not grasping this at an early stage can cause a large amount of head scratching.You can check it out athttp://www.w3schools.com/css/css_boxmodel.aspAnd don't worry about posting the address of your site, it is far easier to provide help to people when we can see what they can see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 3, 2010 Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 OK, I took a look at all the suggestions, and am a little overwhelmed. I expect to understand more as I go.I ordered those two books that were suggested. I am sure they will come in handy.One thing I keep butting my head against is this: CSS and HTML 4.1 or whatever it is now, is supposed to make websites easier to make and look the same on all browsers. It seems to me, a lot more code needs to be done to get the same affect/effect. Is this true?So, can I just put the Transitional DTD on my website and have it be OK until I can get it made over? mainemadestuffAnother question: Am I going to be able to construct my website with CSS having it look tabular as it does now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowMage Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 One thing I keep butting my head against is this: CSS and HTML 4.1 or whatever it is now, is supposed to make websites easier to make and look the same on all browsers. It seems to me, a lot more code needs to be done to get the same affect/effect. Is this true?Not really. Previously styles and presentation were all mixed together with the HTML. CSS simply removes it from the HTML and puts it all in one place. There really isn't any more or less.So, can I just put the Transitional DTD on my website and have it be OK until I can get it made over? mainemadestuffA transitional DTD should get you through, though if you're sites work without a DTD you really wouldn't need one until you convert your pages. When you do rework them, though make sure you use Strict DTDAnother question: Am I going to be able to construct my website with CSS having it look tabular as it does now?With CSS anything is possible. Besides if you have tabular data there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 A transitional DTD should get you through, though if you're sites work without a DTD you really wouldn't need one until you convert your pages. When you do rework them, though make sure you use Strict DTDI am a little confused. I thought the search engins would search my pages better if the DTD is at the beginning of each page. My site does work, but I want it to be better searchable by the search engins. I thought that was the main objective for the DTD. Am I mistaken here?With CSS anything is possible. Besides if you have tabular data there's absolutely nothing wrong with using a table.Perhaps I confused you a little bit using the word tabular. What I meant was, I want my site to look like a filing cabnet with the tabs at the top. I have it that way now in tables, and would like to keep that look. One of the previous posts by someone said tables are a nightmare. So, should I or should I not keep using tables?Signed, Confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescientist Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 A DTD is a set of rules by which a browser will render the structure of your page. Stricter DTD's enforce stricter standards (rules); stricter rules means greater predictability in the way one can expect a browser to render a given page of HTML/CSS. The best way for search engines to rank your site favorably is to use semantic markup. A good way to ensure that you are following good semantic protocol is to follow some of the guidelines set forth by the W3C as it relates to developing for screen readers. I find that the little extra tweaks to adhere to these standards are similar to those recommendation for developing a more search engine friendly site.Get rid of the tables if they're not being used for anything other than TABULAR data, stuff that would naturally go in a table like structure i.e., a calender, a periodic table of elements, temperature/sample readings and results, a train schedule, stuff like that. For your set of links using a "tab" appearance, the emphasis is only on the appearance, in other words the style. You aren't making a table of information, you are merely using a table to hold some styled elements. These days I think most would agree that lists are the way to go towards creating navigation. With CSS, you can style the list items <li> and give them backgrounds that look like tabs, and you can still use rollovers too. You can still maintain the appearance of your filing cabinet using CSS as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 Thank you for the clarification of tables and tabs. You did a good job explaining it so I could understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 It is an exaggeration to say that tables are a nightmare. The choice to use tables as a layout mechanism is as much philosophical as it is practical. People who buy into the philosophy sometimes have the extreme loyalty of converts to any new religion. So you hear lots of exaggerations.Anyone who is accustomed to designing with tables probably finds that they make sense and are easy to design with.Anyone accustomed to using a semantic design and CSS probably finds that this technique makes sense and is easy to design with.It is probably true that the bigger the table, especially if it uses nested tables or a lot of rowspan/colspan tricks, the more difficult it is to maintain. A comparable CSS design is probably easier to maintain. Whether the difference amounts to a "nightmare" depends on the design in question and the skills of the person tasked with maintaining it.Hands down, the simplest way to begin the process of SEO is to make sure you use <h1> and <h2> tags corectly, that you have a fair number of <h2> tags, and that all header tags really do identify keywords related to your project. It used to be true that headings were treated more seriously if they were as high up in the document tree as possible, ideally direct children of the body element. Search engines are a lot more sophisticated these days, so I do not know if this remains true. Every time I talk to an SEO expert, they say things that contradict things other experts say, or they use a lot of words like "usually" and "probably." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainwater Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 That is comforting to know. I feel pretty good about tables, and perhaps because mine is not too messed up is the reason it works. I know there is a problem in one area and have not been able to fix it, but for the most part, my primary site seems to work well the way it is.I am hoping to receive my referance books in the mail soon, and in the meantime, will continue to go through the tutorials here.I did not quite understand the applet site I was referred to; it seemed to me they used the old applet tags, and I need to learn more about Java too.One big holdup for me is my version of Dreamweaver is the old 4.0. I do not have the cash to buy a new version, so am racking my brain on how to get hold of a better version. I do not have any friends that do any kind of coding, and do not know anyone that does. GET THIS.....I am the computer geek in my circle. hehehehahahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingolme Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Most developers don't use Dreamweaver. I use Notepad++, which you can get here for free http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/The problem with dreamweaver is that most amateurs get too used to letting the program do the code for them, and then it just doesn't look good across the different browsers. Dreamweaver's preview system uses its own rendering engine and will probably not look the same as in the browsers.All you need to make good websites is a basic text editor. Ones like Notepad++ indent and highlight syntax, which makes reading code easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boen_robot Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Most developers don't use Dreamweaver.Says who?I use Dreamwaver CS4... but I do use it in code view though. Dreamwaver is a great code editor, if you let it be one. However, it's also a decent WYSIWYG editor, which is where its misuse is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffman Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Agreed. The WYSIWIG part of WYSIWIG editors is their weakest feature. Even the newest version can trick you into thinking all is well, when it really is not.However, the code editors (I'm talking text, now) can be very nice. Syntax highlighting, auto indent, and code completion are very nice features to have.I use a very old version of GoLive. I almost never look at the WYSIWIG window. If I do, it's to simplify editing of text or tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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